Representation Has a Price: One Woman's Breaking Point

how did these different communities help shape where you are now and what you want to do in college and then maybe right after college?

man, I mean, when you talk about anxiety about trying to just figure out how to adjust yourself for different, different groups that you're interacting with, I really feel that. I mean, in one way, in terms of like helping me, it's definitely made me very versatile and trying to figure out how to navigate different environments, which is helpful from, you know, just like a life career perspective. growing up, it was just a lot of like trying to figure out how do I fit in with this group. And no matter where I was, I still felt like, okay, there's something missing where I'm not quite like in like, I was saying like the know, experiences that I felt like my friends who, you know, were white. like we, they weren't the same at home. My experiences with other, just like African Americans also felt very different. And then even within the Nigerian community, I felt so. I think whitewashed that I just didn't really fit in anywhere. I'm just kind of myself. And it's interesting that you mentioned code switching because I don't think I code switch. think I just am. The way I'm speaking to you now is how I would speak to anyone else. And I think there's, I don't know, maybe a little bit of a dissonance depending on where I'm going. So for example, like whenever I go tonight, went to Nigeria with my parents, it's like, I can immediately clock that you're American. like I have a hard time blending in, in that environment. But I don't know. Like I just, in more recent years, I'm just like realizing like this is myself and this is who I am. This is how I'm going to show up. Yeah.

Yeah, for me, I don't I I'm trying to consciously represent myself in a consistent way, which is a little hard. mean, I think just to be completely vulnerable and honest here, I think for me, it's a little bit hard because when I'm with people that I'm comfortable, especially around people that I've grown up with, like when I'm talking in the to them, there's probably a little bit more of a lean to the stuff I say, right? Than if I'm like in the halls of the Pentagon, giving a briefing of some sort. But it's definitely hard. At least for me, it was definitely hard. Because again, it's about that belonging and wanting to make sure that you were in a place where you felt you belonged, but it also, you

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

from a work perspective, always would look around to see if there's any other minorities in the room. I was like, okay, how many other minorities are in here? generally it's especially in the Pentagon, it's like, okay, there's one more or two more or whatever. And that was always hard because you felt like, at least for me, I always felt like I was representing that population for that time, fairly or unfairly. For you,

Mm-hmm.

you know, when when when you were growing up, how how did that impact sort of like how you presented yourself and and the situations that that came up there?

So I think I, yours, also very hyperconscious of, I guess, being the different one in the room. And because of that, going back to anxiety, I always felt like I needed to overperform or outperform. ⁓ If I'm going to come into this space, I'm coming with the likely understanding that there, without someone knowing me,

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

⁓ that they maybe have a perception of what I would be like, and I would, like, arm myself by trying to make sure that, like, I don't know, I always had to show up as, excellent. all the spaces I was in. It's like I deserve to be here, like I more than deserve to be here, but it's also so anxiety inducing because I felt like I could never make a mistake.

Today's episode opens up with a conversation about representation and belonging. What it means to carry your whole story into spaces where very few people look like you or come from where you come from. Our guest today, Vanessa Okoro knows that feeling to the bone. someone who I deeply admire for her honesty, warmth, and willingness to rethink what success really means. immigrants, spent over a decade in management consulting at Ernst & Young, and then made the leap into the federal service with the FAA. Vanessa and I talk about what it means to navigate identity across cultures, careers, and expectations. be perfect, the weight of representation, and the moment you decide to show up for yourself. This conversation is about the work of belonging, not the belonging that's handed to you, but the kind that you must build. It's about the excellence you use as armor, about anxiety that comes from wanting to represent more than one life at a time. And it's about permission, permission to pause, to rest, to rebuild from a place of purpose rather than performance. So whether you're between jobs or between versions of yourself or simply rethinking what your next chapter looks like, I think you'll find this one resonates a lot. Here's my conversation with Vanessa Okoro on identity, excellence, survival, and the long road toward a real sense of home. Let's get it.

to Life Between Titles. I'm your host, Savan, and today I've got my friend Vanessa. Vanessa, how are you?

doing great, how are you Savan

I'm doing fantastic. Like we mentioned earlier, this was probably scheduled for the last month and a half with four reschedules. So I'm glad we're finally able to connect and I'm glad that you're here.

Yeah, thank you. You know what? Everything happens for a reason. Maybe today is, there's something fortuitous about this day that it was meant to be.

No, I completely agree. completely agree. Vanessa, I want to maybe start off by having you answer a few quick questions so that the listeners can get to get to know you a little bit better. Maybe some fun questions so we can break the ice a little bit. And then we could dive into maybe some things that are more top of mind for you. But before we get started, few questions that I've asked previous guests that I'd love to know. Your answer is two. Are you ready for this? Okay. Vanessa, in one word, if you had to use one word to describe what scares you right now, what would that be?

Yeah, let's go. gosh, what scares me right now? You know, I don't know if it's a right now. feel like this is probably a persistent thing, but probably amplified by where we are right now, but uncertainty. Yeah. Yeah, just, you know, I've always been somebody who's had a plan for something or at least like a vision or like, okay, I can see where I'm going. And, you know, we'll get into this, but I've had like two career changes in the last two years and I

Okay, expand on that for me.

definitely did not think this was where I was going to be if you asked me like two or three years ago. You know navigating the job market and that uncertainty is weird kind of seeing what the what looks like the future which is I don't think you're going to be seeing a lot of people in roles for like 10 to 15 years anymore it's like being agile and just getting ready to go on to the next thing even though you may not know what that looks like.

Yeah, I feel the same way about so many of that. the stage at which we're actually playing this game is changing. The rules are changing and it's changing pretty fast. I think it's changing a lot faster than any one of us would have expected and it's definitely scary times. Second question, Vanessa. If you had to be a a number that represents you, what number would you choose?

where are these questions coming from? Alright, a number that best represents me. think it's like seven, probably for a couple of reasons. you know, the lame one is like I was born in July. but it still feels like, you know, lucky seven. I feel like it's just like my number. I know what's wrong. It's like, like, I'm curious about, like, this question, how it pans out for other people.

I think we have like certain affinities to things like colors and questions and or colors and numbers and and I think it sort of grows with us over time. Like I've I've always loved 23 for Gordon and for the player and the shoes and anytime I don't I'm not a big gambler but anytime I go

Yeah. then. Mm.

To the casino, I will play roulette because that's the most straightforward one. Then I'll always play 23, even though it doesn't win most of the time. So that's yeah, that's my number, but I love seven as well. think seven, isn't it like historically a lucky number for people or is that six?

Okay. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, no, I think it's seven, like lucky sevens in gambling. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like that's always a number of cataproclivity towards. ⁓

⁓ okay. All right. So you were born in July then so you're a summer baby, huh?

I am a summer baby and it is my favorite season even though it is everyone's like it's so hot and gross out I'm like no it's great people are on vacation you get to go to the beach the beach is one of my favorite places to be yeah I like being around water so cancer is mine

Yeah. Yeah, I love that too. I'm a big summer fan, but for only like a month and a half. And then I just think about one to put on like a hoodie or a parka or something like that. As I'm wearing a t shirt in the wintertime.

I mean, my husband is like, no, I'm like, he's, sweats a lot. But he's just like, it's too much. Like the fall is great. That is a perfect time. But I think fall is a lie because it just rains most of the time in the fall or it's like super windy. I'm like, no, it's not what you think it is. And I think it's just like, I like the long days, summer nights kind of vibe.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Tell me what it was like growing up for you being born in the summer because I know my daughter is born in May and we can never have you know the her school classmates come to her birthday parties just because they were too far out. What was it like growing up for you being born in the summer and being a summer baby?

Okay. man, I remember feeling really sad because like, during the school year, like, you know, people would bring their parents would bring cupcakes or treats or whatever in and like, I never got that because we were out of school or ⁓ birthday announcements that people would make and I felt like very left out. But I mean, other than the being at school,

Right.

stuff uh i don't know i still really enjoyed my birthday i feel like my parents really put in a lot of effort to make sure i had really memorable birthdays

Yeah, what was your most memorable birthday, if you can recall? Or if you want to tell strangers on the internet.

sure. Now, I think one of the most memorable birthdays I had was my sweet 16, which, you know, wasn't like a big party where everyone got dressed up. when I was in high school, I like discovered my love of musicals. So my parents got a limousine. for like me and 10 of my friends to go into New York City. I'm from New Jersey originally. And we went to dinner and then we got to see Rent and the musical Rent. And it was just so fun because I, it was almost like a surprise. Like I did not know, like I knew we were gonna go see the musical. I did not know my parents were gonna get me a limousine to go do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Wow, wow, wow. That's amazing. I think the first time I was ever in a limousine, was an adult as well, or maybe it was prom. I'd never been in one, it just blew my mind. Well, one, we could never afford it, but when I got in there, I was just thinking like, people actually live like this.

Yeah. just like my god like if i was like fabulously wealthy i could do this every day ⁓ but yeah it's just like it was like a cute fun experience and i i liked it because it felt different than you know a typical sweet 16.

Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. That is amazing. And it's just the amount of thought that parents put into making sure that kids are taken care of. You mentioned that you were born in New Jersey or you grew up in New Jersey. Is that right? Yeah, how was that?

born and raised. You know, interesting because I think when people hear like, you're a Jersey girl, they have a specific, you know, ⁓ archetype of a person in mind. But I'm also the daughter of like Nigerian immigrants. So.

Yes.

I feel more affinity to that than necessarily being someone from New Jersey. So for example, you know, everyone says like, yeah, you go down the shore, like not to the beach. And I didn't go down to the shore until like my senior year of high school. So like, I didn't really understand what people meant by that. And then I think when I went to college, cause I went to college in DC,

Mm-hmm.

then I started to feel a bit more of that like Jersey pride thing because everyone would be like, New Jersey, armpit of America. And I'm like, hey, we have the fourth best public education system in the country. It is a wonderful place to raise a family. It is the garden state for a reason. Your pharmaceuticals come from here. Like all of like the trivia about New Jersey starts coming out of it. So I did not feel this growing up.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Hahaha! I know. Yeah, it's funny how much how much you latch on to random, random shit about where you grew up like I where I grew up, it was called White Center. And it was the projects when I was a kid. And I always hated it. You know, I always wanted to leave and it was it was a looking back at it. It was actually a really good place for me to grow up for a bunch of reasons. But

Yeah.

You know, when I tell people about that now, it's one, it's become so gentrified that it's not even the same thing as what it was before. But also, too, I've learned so many random facts about it that I didn't know when I was growing up. Like it was called it's still called Rat City because of all the rats that were there. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, I grew up in I grew up in what? Rat City. It's all good. That's wrong with that. Right.

Yeah. What? Yeah, no, I mean, it sounds like really hard. It's like, ooh, Rat City, like what happened in your part of the the hood. my goodness.

Yeah. Yeah, no, it was a it was a great place to grow up. A little bit about this, this idea of these two identities you had that you mentioned earlier, it's really interesting to me how, you know, people that are immigrants or that have immigrant backgrounds, how their sense of identity sort of is shaped.

Yeah.

by where they grew up? Like, what was that like for you and your family growing up in Jersey and you know, Nigerian immigrants? Was it hard? Did you struggle with certain things?

Yeah, no, I definitely had a lot of like identity issues and conflicts growing up. So I grew up in Scotch Plains, New Jersey. And, you know, at the time when I was growing up, the demographic was like you either are Italian, come from an Irish background or you're Jewish, one of the three. And so.

Yeah. Thank

It wasn't the most diverse place necessarily. That's not to say like I was the only like black person that lived in town, but I felt like in a lot of my classes, I was like one of two or three. ⁓ and then when it comes to like immigrant population, most of the Nigerians that like we grew up with, they weren't living in that part of New Jersey. They're more living, like in Newark or Irvington or West Orange, which are, you know, cities that are closer to New York. ⁓ so I felt like those communities, you had a lot more, you know, people who were like you there. But for me growing up, I felt very like it was like,

Mm-hmm.

I was operating one way when I was at school with my friends and then functioning like a different way when I was at home with my family. So for example, like, you know, we'd be going out to like an event or something with my family and people not really understanding. It's like, yeah, we left to go to this wedding. We didn't go to the... the ceremony, but we went to the reception and then everyone was there until like 5am in the morning. Like, I don't think that was like the norm for my other friends growing up. They're like, what do you mean? Or like, was, I don't know, it just felt like very different and I didn't realize that.

Thank you.

those experiences are totally normal, it's just within that kind of community, which I don't think I really got more integrated into until I got to college.

Yeah, I've been... I was in very similar position growing up to and I think the term the term that gets used for for me is code switching. There's a lot of code switching. And I didn't know what that really meant growing up. you know, the the experience I had was I you know, there's a sort of Cambodian side of things, which is a very strong sort of influence in in my life, but

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I also was influenced by a lot of hip hop back in the 80s and 90s, especially the 90s. And so there was sort of that culture and there was, you know, the gang violence that we had in my neighborhood. And I had a lot of family and friends that were part of sort of that.

Hmm. Mm.

And a lot of that influenced me in many ways. And then in high school, I went to a private high school called Lakeside. And that's where like Bill Gates went and Paul Allen went and all these. And so like, I would always have to try to navigate these different situations in very different ways. And I always thought that was something as I reflect on that I don't know if it caused me to have a lot of anxiety because I'm always trying to sort of fit into these populations. For you, you know, as you were growing up, like, how did sort of like these different communities help shape where you are now and what you want to do in college and then maybe right after college?

man, I mean, when you talk about anxiety about trying to just like figure out how to adjust yourself for different, different groups that you're interacting with, I really feel that. I mean, in one way, in terms of like helping me, it's definitely made me very versatile and trying to figure out how to navigate different environments, which is helpful from, you know, just like a life career perspective. growing up, it was just a lot of like trying to figure out how do I fit in with this group. And no matter where I was, I still felt like, okay, there's something missing where I'm not quite like in like, I was saying like the know, experiences that I felt like my friends who, you know, were white. like we, they weren't the same at home. My experiences with other, just like African Americans also felt very different. And then even within the Nigerian community, I felt so. I think whitewashed that I just didn't really fit in anywhere. I'm just kind of myself. And it's interesting that you mentioned code switching because I don't think I code switch. think I just am. The way I'm speaking to you now is how I would speak to anyone else. And I think there's, I don't know, maybe a little bit of a dissonance depending on where I'm going. So for example, like whenever I go tonight, went to Nigeria with my parents, it's like, I can immediately clock that you're American. like I have a hard time blending in, in that environment. But I don't know. Like I just, in more recent years, I'm just like realizing like this is myself and this is who I am. This is how I'm going to show up. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it is. is, you know, for for me, I don't I I'm trying to consciously represent myself in a consistent way, which is a little hard. mean, I think just to be completely vulnerable and honest here, I think for me, it's a little bit hard because when I'm with people that I'm comfortable, especially around people that I've grown up with, like when I'm talking in the to them, there's probably a little bit more of a lean to the stuff I say, right? Than if I'm like in the halls of the Pentagon, giving a briefing of some sort. But it's definitely hard. At least for me, it was definitely hard. Because again, it's about that belonging and wanting to make sure that you were in a place where you felt like you belonged, but it also, you

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

from a work perspective, always would look around to see if there's any other minorities like in the room. I was like, okay, like how many other minorities are in here? Okay, generally it's especially in the Pentagon, it's like, okay, there's one more or two more or whatever. And that was always hard because you felt like, at least for me, I always felt like I was representing that population for that time, fairly or unfairly. For you,

Mm-hmm.

you know, when when when you were growing up, how how did that impact sort of like how you presented yourself and and the situations that that came up there?

So I think I, like yours, also very hyperconscious of, I guess, being the different one in the room. And because of that, going back to anxiety, I always felt like I needed to overperform or outperform. ⁓ If I'm going to come into this space, I'm coming with the likely understanding that there, without someone knowing me,

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

⁓ that they maybe have a perception of what I would be like, and I would, like, arm myself by trying to make sure that, like, I don't know, I always had to show up as, excellent. all the spaces I was in. It's like I deserve to be here, like I more than deserve to be here, but it's also so anxiety inducing because I felt like I could never make a mistake. And like I'll give you an example, like when I was earlier in my consulting career, you know, there was talk about like putting me up for a promotion from like senior consultant to manager. And I like pulled back on it because I was so nervous like in like that management consulting space that, okay, if I'm like one of a few black managers, if I mess up, like that's it, they're going to be like, no, this is why we can't be, I hate like bring it back to the conversation about DEI hires right now because that is like manifesting some of my worst nightmares, but like, this is what happens when we give someone like her a chance. So it's always pushed me to try to be perfect or again, just like I have a very high standard of performance.

Yeah, I agree. I think fairly or unfairly, we have this weight on our shoulders. We meaning, I categorize minorities and immigrants and sort of this bucket of having to represent not just the institution that you're working for, but also your dead grandparents, your community and all these other things, right?

Yeah, the legacy, yes, the ancestors.

Right, right. And fairly or unfairly, right? I think there are many situations where other people don't think about stuff like that. But I know for me personally, I definitely do. I definitely think about stuff like that all the time.

You know, I wonder, do you think part of it is the individualistic versus collectivistic, you know, kind of culture? I know for, for me, a lot of it is just like how you are out in the world represents not just yourself, but your family. Yeah.

Yep. I agree. think as I'm sitting down and writing this memoir, I'm coming up with these different themes in my head that are surfacing after doing these interviews. And one of the themes is around survival. we, the Cambodian community, at least, we when we came here, We collectively came together to survive. And we collectively came together to help each other out because we don't have the luxury of having an education and knowing sort of the system. And so we had to lean on each other to do those types of things. And I think that naturally has, at least within the Cambodian community, that naturally has led us to think about things like what we're becoming ⁓ anxious about, is the representation of your community as you're going out and trying to expand, you know, the presence of those, those people within your community to different places. I think the, the thing about at least the Cambodian community, I'd love to hear your opinion about the Nigerian community is when one person gets to be, let's just say like a football player. Like I know there's one half Cambodian football player and he plays for the Seattle Seahawks and you know, every single Cambodian family knows who Charbonnet is. He's half French, half Cambodian. And, even when I was at the DOD, it's like everybody knew there was at least one person that was there. And so the representation was a big deal because it, you know, it's, it's the foundation of it is the survival of your community and yourself, but it's also the representation of that. I would love to hear your opinion of the Nigerian community, especially on the East Coast and where you grew up.

You know, it's an interesting point because I think it all goes back to that excellence. It's like, OK, we're going to glom onto this person who has truly made it in this space.

Mm-hmm.

I guess what you're describing is more national because it's like American football, like on a global stage where people will be like, yeah, this person. I remember when I was in elementary school, like Hakeem Olajuwon from basketball, was just like, yeah, he's Nigerian, like me. Even though we're not from the same tribe, ethnic group, but like.

yeah. Yeah.

being able to see that and say like that person is from my culture, that person is part of where I came from, that always feels good. And while you're talking, I was also thinking about education. So I think when I hear people who talk about their experiences with Nigerian people, they're just like these, very educated, very like, it's the whole. everyone's either like a doctor, you're a lawyer, you're an engineer, you're an entrepreneur. In like our very bombastic, like vocabulary and way of speaking, probably inspired by the Queen's English. But yeah, I think, I don't know, I think about that a lot in terms of

Yes.

showing up and like the representation of the community, but at the same time, I also like, you know, like grinds my gears when people say like Nigerian friend scam. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's, I think there's just so much history and context that we've applied to different segments of the world, world that, you know, at least from, from my perspective, they, there's a lot of bending off of the, those misconceptions that we have to do even before we do the actual work, even before we get in to

Yeah.

you know, get a fair shake at like a job or an opportunity. And it's really fucking hard. It's really fucking hard.

Yeah.

⁓ Vanessa, tell me about, about college for you. So, you said you went to college in, in DC. Whereabouts.

I went to George Washington University. Yeah.

Okay, how was that?

It was great. It was, I always tell people, because usually when I tell somebody, I went to GW, they're like, ⁓ expensive. And I was like, you know what? It was worth every penny. To me, it was worth every penny. I really felt like that was where I was starting to grow into myself and the person I wanted to be. you know, going back to being in New Jersey, I...

Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Even though like I will defend New Jersey until the day I die, I still didn't feel like that was the place where I was going to end up. Like I didn't really feel like I fit in when I was in Jersey. I was looking for something bigger. And when I started doing college tours and like I think GW is actually one of the first places I looked at, I just like, I love that this is a college without like a boundary. Like there's no gate. Like it is in a city. It is of the city. All of your experiences are so like tied to DC. Like for some people not having a football team is like a deal breaker. I said, this sounds great to me. Love that. ⁓

huh. huh.

we used to have a program, or the universities have a program where they would leave like copies of the Washington Post, like New York Times, Wall Street Journal in the lobby of everyone's dorm. Like I loved that everyone was so engaged in like what's happening in the world. And I didn't necessarily feel that way when I was in high school in New Jersey. And that's not to say like that people like that weren't there, but I know, I just felt like I wanted something bigger. I really loved my time at GW. Like, met some of the best friends that like I've ever had and I got my masters from Georgetown too, but like my affinity is definitely more towards GW for sure.

Yeah, college has this way of highlighting things that we, at least as kids and teenagers, we are grasping for as we're growing up. I had the same desires. You know, for me, I just wanted to get the hell out of Seattle. I was just so fed up with it. And I made a promise to myself that I'll never come back to Washington. And here I am.

Mm-hmm. I said.

But yeah, I went to I went to Occidental for my first year I was going to be I was going to be a writer and I studied history and you know from a sort of a macro perspective just looking at the places that you choose to spend the next four years of your life. There are certain drivers at least for me like I want to be at a place that where people are critically and you know, I didn't really know exactly sort of how yet. But just having sort of that influence was a big deal to me of people with that same, you know, disposition for an education. For you, what were some of the what were some of the big things that you took out of your your college years in terms of helping you come up with what you want to do after college? Like, were there experiences that or professors that influenced you there?

Yeah, so this is such an interesting question because it, and I think this is kind of where comes, where, excuse me, when I say like it fundamentally changed me. ⁓ I would say like one of the experiences that I had that kind of really brought me to where I am today was working in the Office of Undergraduate Admissions.

Mm-hmm.

my work study job. Yeah, it wasn't even so much about class. It was so when I went to GW, I part of why I wanted to go to a school like that was like, okay, you have so many majors, and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Like, you know, I could probably figure out something. I wound up landing on international affairs. But honestly, I think that's just because almost everybody was in the International Affairs School. But when I started working in the

⁓ okay. All right.

⁓ I was a sophomore working in the undergraduate admissions office and I was also a tour guide. And growing up, I was very shy. I felt very shy and very awkward, but yes, extremely, extremely. I was very shy, very, I'm still an introverted person, but like public speaking was like my worst nightmare.

Really?

And it just always made me very nervous. But when I was a tour guide, and that whole program obviously being run by the admissions office, I started learning how to get more comfortable talking to large audiences, getting more comfortable in just speaking, talking about myself. ⁓ And I don't know, and it started to get fun, making jokes, speaking off the cuff.

Okay. Mm-hmm.

and making connections with people, that felt really good. But part of like the part about working in the office was I was learning about the business of higher education and I never really thought about business when I went into college. I thought it like about history and like political science and I was just like, this is really fascinating because what we're doing is like really just marketing.

So, that.

at the end of the day, and um you know in thinking through that I was just like okay I think that's actually some fields like I want to go into, and I think the easiest way for people who are not business majors to get into business was uh consulting. It turns out I was in a great city to do that. But I don't think without that experience and thinking about the bigger picture of the way a university operates. I mean, of course, it's about the education and the professors, but it's like there's...

Bye! Yeah.

a machine behind it driven by money and like where revenue comes in and like alumni relations and all of that. So by the time I graduated, yeah, I realized this, like, I think I want to pivot and take more of a business focus rather than just pure government.

Yeah. Did you go to Georgetown right after getting your undergraduate?

No, I went, I graduated in 2009 and I went into Georgetown in 2013. Yeah.

Okay, so there was a period of time there where you were working or doing other things. What did that look like?

gosh well I mean starting with graduating in 2009 god I was just like give me anything give me any job

I mean, that was the height of the recession, right? ⁓

Yeah, yeah, that was quite a time, especially for someone who's just like, I think I want to get into something more business oriented with no business background. But because we're in DC, obviously, with the Recovery Reinvestment Act, there was so much money being pumped into the federal government. So then by that nature, obviously, government contracting, which is what I pretty much went into for those first five years. ⁓

Right. Right. Mm-hmm.

just also to facilitate my entry into consulting. But when I was doing that work, I was doing a lot of IT project management work and it didn't, I was just like, I was.

Mm-hmm.

I was basically said like, this will not be my life forever. And part of why I went to Rich Town was because, like, you know, a friend of mine, she went to their PR and corporate communications program when she was telling me about it. was just like, this sounds like something I would be very interested in doing. So I was trying to use that as a way to pivot away from just like doing the government contracting thing, which, you know, I graduated from that program in 2015 and still wound up in consulting just at a bigger firm. But I was getting an opportunity to do more of the work that I wanted. So it wasn't really project management, it was more about the organizational change management.

Right. Yeah, I always wonder how people get into consulting because it's such a vast and somewhat ambiguous role. How did you pick that? Like, were there certain stipulations that that you had for yourself that said like, Okay, if I hit these things, I'm going to be a consultant.

Not necessarily. I think when I first heard about the concept of consulting, I was just like, oh, like at the end of the day, I think for me as a person, I want to help people. Like I want to help. I want to be like useful and helping solve problems. So, you know, when I first started like hearing about consulting, like for my friends who are older, like when I was like a junior and they were seniors and they're like, oh, I'm going to go apply to work at Deloitte or Baring Point or something back in the day. Um, I was just like, oh, that that sounds interesting. And that sounds like something I could do. Um, but I don't know. Yeah, like, I, it's interesting, because I think of consulting as being, it's the same as being undecided in college. And I think I still felt very undecided. Yeah, it's just like, I'm just gonna try a bunch of different things until I figure out what the real thing is that I want to do.

Yep. Ha

and I think that's like really how I thought about consulting. ⁓ like I still figure out what I want to do when I grow up. So let me just like go into this for a while. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right, interesting. What was the worst part of being a consultant?

it's so much the worst thing, but I think the thing, you know, looking back at the 15 years I was in consulting, it was feeling like I couldn't actually affect any change. Because at the end of the day, I was always going to be an outsider. And the other part of it that I felt like really challenged by, and I think I recognized this more when I had transitioned into government service, was I, I struggled feeling like I was making genuine relationships with, with people. I like, you know, the

Mm. Yeah.

whole thing was like, yeah, the basis of our business is our relationships. Like, don't think about it like you're going to go sell work. You're just like trying to get to know people. And so it's like, no, no, no, no, you're you're not paying me to go like make new friends. You're paying me to people who are going to be willing to give me money to deliver work. And like, I definitely valued a lot of my client relationships, but I felt like a market difference when I

Right.

became a Fed and I was just like, people aren't like like apprehensive about talking to me. It felt like so much more genuine and real. So I think having like real genuine relationships that was something I struggled with being a consultant.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's hard. I've been on both sides and it's, definitely hard because there's a lot of skepticism. If you're a consultant or you're a contractor and you're coming into the government and you're trying to explain to them the value that you're going to bring and why it's worth their time. And, you know, I think that's like 90 % of the work there is just trying to get

Mm-hmm.

in the door so you can actually have honest conversations. The transition to being in the federal government from a consultant, tell me how did that happen? You know, what were some of the conversations you were having and what was sort of like the main driver for making that switch?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good question. So before I had gone into government, I was working at Ernst & Young for 10 years. So after I had left my graduate program, basically, I got scouted to come to EY. And after being there for 10 years, going from senior consultant to manager, manager to senior manager, at the senior manager level, was feeling

Mm-hmm.

I don't want to say burnt out because it really wasn't about the burnout. It was I was feeling disconnected from the work. Like literally I was disconnected because I wasn't doing the work anymore. I was administering everything around it. Like I'm talking to clients, making sure invoices are getting paid, approving time sheets. And I felt like I was doing so much of that, that I was getting further and further away from the root of why I wanted to do consulting, which was helping clients. ⁓

Hey.

So that was one. Two, if I was going to go to the next level in my consulting career of being like a partner, an executive, the idea of saying I'm a career consultant without having actual experience on the other side, there was something about that that felt very disingenuous. Like how am I going to come in and tell you I have all of these amazing ideas for how you operate without actually having that experience?

Mmm

So that was two. And then the third, it just kind of goes back to purpose. Again, when I got to that level at senior manager, yes, we want to help build a better working world, but we're also not a nonprofit. We're here to make money. As opposed to going to the... you know, essentially I had gone over to my client side. The Federal Aviation Administration had been my client for a very, very long time. Like you're just so much closer to the mission and it just feels, it felt different in terms of like motivations for doing the work. So yeah, I would say those are my big three reasons for making the switch.

Yeah, I had an interesting text conversation with a friend this morning. And she was telling me about one of her late night, early morning musings. And she said, and she's a minority as well. And she said, you know, I was when I was growing up that you wanted to get to that next level every single time. get that promotion that title change and, now she's like, so with that gone, you know, what's, what do you think are drivers for success? How do you measure if you're successful? Do you measure if you are doing the right thing? And for me, it was a hard question because like, I'm struggling with that now, you know, you, you sort of like, you take a look at

Yeah.

the opportunities that are out there. And I mean, even your search history and LinkedIn, there's certain parameters that you want to hit in terms of titles and whatever. And I always think it's, it's interesting when people make drastic switches. They're going from, you know, either the private side to the government side, or they're going from like a nonprofit to an education to education or something like that. When you were making that switch, and you knew that you weren't getting these benefits of working at Earth and Young anymore, to working in the government, what were some of the things that that were you about, you you investing time now as being a federal employee? Were there things that sort of gave you a little bit of pause? And I'll give an example, like when I went to the D.O.D. from working, you know, at carry on Amazon, like I was worried about the amount of tools and accessibility to users that I historically had. And that was like a big worry for me as you know, somebody who's has that design background. For you, when you made that switch, what were some of those worries that you had?

So I think the biggest worry that I had was, like, it really did kind of go back to titles. I was leaving, you know, a senior role to essentially take a step back to be more of an individual contributor. I wasn't going to be managing anybody, which was nice to have the break, but...

Mm-hmm.

And it was a fear, but I think it actually did become realized when I went over to government. And I don't know if it's just like the generational divide, but because I was not in a manager role, don't think people, like they didn't see or think about like the years of experience I was coming in with. Like, I feel like I had to really lean into that. So I'm coming here with 15 years of experience. I also think part of my concern or worries, like I present young, and I'm not saying that in like a way to brag, it's just like I have been told this. So like I remember one day I had gone in and I met somebody or like I had done a briefing or a presentation and somebody. ⁓ you know, very kindly pinged me afterward and said like, hey, can I talk to you for a moment? And I said sure. And they told me like, you hold yourself like so well, like your presentation sounds wonderful. One day you're going to make a great manager. And I was like, okay. All right. It's just, it was weird for someone not to see me as what I what I was before, which was somebody who was about to go into like executive leadership. Like it felt like you had de-aged me by like 10 years and that like kind of hurt. Yeah.

Right. Yeah, it definitely does. You know, we when when I was at DDS, everybody was the same level we were all I didn't know the levels at all. I didn't even know what I signing up for. But we were all digital service experts, which going into something like that, like I didn't I don't know what the hell that was. Like what the hell is a digital service expert? You tell anybody that's not in that realm what that is. They're like, what? So what do you do? It's like I just do stuff they give me.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah!

And it was very weird after managing pretty large teams to go in and just be an expert at something. And I always, you know, I found it to be a double edged sword because I think when you are at a place of seniority, and you have sort of like, that experience built up, you can go in and you can do certain things, you can have a certain amount of weight. that you pull when you need to make decisions. Whereas like if you're coming in as just like an individual contributor, a lot of that doesn't sort of like, it doesn't hold the same amount of weight, at least I didn't think it did. And, and it was really hard because you're like, I've been doing this for 20 years. I know exactly sort of what I'm doing. Right? Like, this is not anything new. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, do you know? Sorry, do you know who I am? Yeah.

man. Tell me about your time with the FAA. Like, I think that's where we met was we were we we this was it seemed like a lifetime ago now. But how did you? How did you? One, how do you choose to plant your flag there? I know that that was one of your clients, but you know, choosing to plant your flag somewhere, I think it's a big commitment. And then to

Yeah! Mm-hmm. I know!

What were some of the things that surprised you like when you finally got to be a government employee?

So in terms of like planting my flag, like I'd mentioned before, so when I was at GW, I eventually wound up being an international affairs major. And when I was coming out and going into like government contracting consulting, was like, okay, I'm going to target State Department and USAID. Those are the clients that I want to work with to stay in the international space. when I went to EY, my client, I had a couple of different clients. had like GSA, VA, and then I had FAA as a customer. there were felt, something felt very different when I got to FAA and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I was like, why does this feel so different? Because I did have State Department and USAID as clients in the past. And I was like, something about this feels different. And I think for me going to FAA, well, I

Right.

fully respect the mission and the work that diplomats and international development specialists do, it didn't feel as tangible and real like for most American citizens. Like most people, if you're not flying from a broader Department of Transportation perspective, like you're using the roads, you've used transit, you've, you know, been on ships, like it just felt so real in that element of safety, like there was, and this I'm just speaking from my experience, I think a level of pretension that, and an air of importance, and I'm not saying it wasn't important that I experienced when I was working with the State Department that melted away when I went to FAA, just like, like it's about the safety and the mission and like keeping people safe in the sky. Pure and simple, that is what it's about. There's no ego there because we don't have time for that. And I loved, I loved it. In terms of coming into my first year at FAA, like the year and a half that I spent there was some of the most rewarding time in my entire career. There, I have such a deep, deep deep respect for air traffic controllers and the work that they do, especially after getting to like visit towers and see what like they're doing, the stress that they're managing. Like I was just so proud to be part of that mission. I loved it so much. In terms of what surprised me about coming into government, something that I really hadn't thought of and I wish I had more time to explore it was, engagement with industry was different as a Fed. Like, I forget that, you know, part of why like so many companies come and headquarter to DC is that like influence from the government. And I never thought about the weight

Mmm. Okay, what does that look like?

that carried with saying like, I'm representing X, Y, Z agency. And we were working on a project at the time, like last year, ⁓ to build up like an innovation center in the DC headquarters and. getting to do a bunch of research and reaching out to partners on the government side, but also an industry. We reached out to Capital Ones, their innovation lab, the different consulting firms around just being able to reach out and say, I'm working on this project. And by nature of it being in support of the federal government, people were like, my god, yes, absolutely. How can I help? not expecting. I was not expecting that kind of response from industry, yeah, to get involved and help support something like that.

I mean, I wish we did more of that in government, where, you know, you would try to sort of expand the aperture at which you're actually looking at problems. Because I think sometimes we become so like tunnel focused on a problem. And we always assume that we know the answer, because it's historically been done a certain way. And then it sort of pigeonholes us into these situations where we're like, we just spent

Okay.

$50 million building this thing. And we could have avoided a lot of that if we actually like maybe brought in a few more experts that knew exactly what they were doing in the beginning. What's what types of what types of work are you doing right now that that is making you excited? And it could be either, you know, actual work work or hobbies or things like that that you're that you're working on.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So great question. I don't think in this conversation we brought it up, but obviously I volunteered to be part of the Deferred Resignation Program. So I volunteered to resign from my role at FAA. And so I haven't been actively working in an office since April. And honestly, there's stuff that I've been thinking about, but. really what I've been trying to work on is just existing. Just being. Like I'm not in school, I'm not in school anymore. so I ⁓ I had to spend a lot of time thinking about like okay where am I going and I really want to do things that make me feel fulfilled and in order to do that I need to get over

Let me know more about that.

this idea of like having a title. And I felt I was thinking about it. And you know, when I was in high school, I was just like, well, I am an honor student and I am a varsity athlete. And then when I was a college student, it was just like, okay, I'm on the Dean's list. And then I was a consultant. now like I was my I was always associated with something and I haven't really had the time to just like focus like on like, who am I? outside of all of those things. So I've been honestly doing a lot of work to think about like, what is it that I really want to do? And I think the consistent thing, going back to what I said about why I wanted to go into consulting is I want to be able to help people. I like the idea of helping people kind of just think through problems and, you know, help them make decisions or help them figure out how to make a decision or like illustrate something that they'd never thought of. So what I've really been working on, you know, in this time that I haven't been working, was exploring the world of coaching. And yeah. So I got my own coach who introduced me to his network of coaches. and I've had conversations with so many people and built up my network around these folks that all have like their different approach and focus areas on coaching. But all of them, when I talk to them, they're just like, I'm really happy that I did this. I really feel like this is my true purpose. And I really feel like in the long like run, that's really where I wanna take my career, where I think I can add the most value to others while still staying true to myself. So that like in terms of a project, thinking about like programs that I wanna look into, that's given me a lot of energy, thinking about like what kind of company I could set up, that's been giving me a lot of energy. But even outside of that, just being able to sit down and do the work of like spending time with myself and just chilling, like, you know, if that means like me going to the gym in the middle of the day and, you know, just being fine with that, or like I have loved being able to take like a two mile walk every morning, just like appreciate the world around me. Like in this time, like those have been a lot of the things that have, I've been putting a lot of my energy and time into.

Yeah. Yeah. a lot harder than you think to to do that to consciously do that. And I've said it on previous segments. I struggle. I struggle resting and doing that because like I'm constantly thinking about or trying to do something I feel like if I'm not doing those things and I'm wasting my life away or I'm wasting these opportunities and I get into these like cycles of, you know, just really feeling bad about

Mm.

resting or working out or going for a run when it's, it's healthy, right, it sort of helps keep you grounded. And the, the other thing I wanted to ask you, Vanessa was from, from a coaching perspective, what does that look like? I'll give you a little bit of background to this question. So I I had an executive coach for a minute.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

when I was ⁓ with rebellion defense, and she was fantastic. She she just taught me a bunch of stuff that I didn't sort of know that I was doing or that I wanted to do. But I also didn't know, sort of like what her job entailed. Because I was like, okay, like you get a coach, you know, what do they what do they get you because I can understand a coach, it from a team perspective, like you're guiding them to a championship, but like, from a life perspective, What does that look like?

So the consistent thing that I have heard from all of my conversations with other coaches is that, first of all, coaching and consulting are not the same thing. And you need to get very comfortable with that idea because you're not telling somebody what to do. You're helping them figure out what they need to do. Which I was just like, ooh, yeah, that's a good point. But then I feel like, is someone going to feel like they're getting what they actually need?

Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right.

out of working with a coach or like working with me. And I had to kind of take a step back and think about it. Even though coaching and consulting are not the same, like how I would interact with some of my clients, especially when like I was just checking in with them, just kind of asking questions to help them think of it differently, but I wasn't telling them what to do. necessarily. And I, you know, that's, that's kind of where I want. That's what I want to orient my coaching around. But it's hard because I don't want someone to feel like, well, if I'm supposed to find the answer myself, then like, you know, why did I bother like working with you? It's more like trying to give an outside perspective, but I'm not going to tell you what the answer is, because like, you're going to know what the answer is. And in the grand scheme of coaching, you know, like what kind of coaching do you want to do? That's something that people have asked me before. And I think a lot of people think about executive coaching. The kind of coaching I want to do is I want to work with people who are in the pipeline to be executives because yeah, like, like I think people get, honestly, I think people get coaching and their career is way too late.

I

help people understand first of all do you even want that next step and I guess I'm thinking about my own experience because understanding why you're going to make your next move is gonna be I think a critical part of whether or not you're gonna be successful in it because if you don't know why you're gonna go up into this new role or you feel like you're being pushed into it, you're gonna really have a hard time being successful because there's so much pressure at that level that you really need to know that you want to do this. I also think there's an opportunity there because in talking with others for a long time, They usually say, I wish I had gotten coaching before becoming an executive to prepare me for it because by the time I got there, I just didn't know what I was doing. Yeah. So it's almost like I just catch people.

Yeah. But that's, it's, it's a powerful thing. And I don't know. There are certain skill sets that I think work that you have to work on to be effective as a leader that without the opportunity, you can't work on those skill sets, but you don't get those skill sets without the opportunities. So you you you're in this catch 22. And, you know, for me, the one thing that I appreciated from the coaches that I had was I would bring her situations that were real for me. And I'd say, you know, I am in this position where I need to get this thing signed so we can move forward with whatever project that is. But I know I'm going to get pushed back on it because whatever, right, like not enough engineers, not enough money. We have these other initiatives and I need to try to figure out how I can orient myself and you know, the the way I'm presenting this project to be the most successful. And so like she did a lot of walking through it. She didn't know what the project was, or the intricacies of the business. But like she knew and she understood how I thought about things, and how the other person could potentially react to it. And that was so invaluable to me. from us and like I actually think, you know, the way that she thinks about things is, is very, very helpful. From your perspective, as you're like, you're learning to be a coach, what are some things that you're, you know, training yourself on or you're reading or you're consuming to sort of help you get into that mental model of coaching other people?

That's a really good question. So I think the first thing is what I had mentioned before, that understanding you're not giving somebody an answer. You really are, but you're asking the right questions to help them think about what the answer is. I think I'm also... I don't know. It's hard because I'm still thinking and learning about what coaching is and how I want to go into this practice. It's... I think the area that I'm really trying to focus on is not that I have not done this before, but just continuing to lean into the energy of asking questions. Keep asking questions and keep being curious about the person. Because I think the more that you dig in and ask questions, the more will come to light, not just for that person, but also for me to help in the guiding and the navigation. So getting better at asking questions. think what, so one of the things that I had learned was don't ask people why when you're asking them questions because it almost feels like you're, you're putting them in a position where they need to defend themselves. So like I had always been taught like don't ask yes or no questions. So you don't just get a flat answer with no explanation behind it. But hearing someone say don't ask somebody why, but like, how did you get to this conclusion? Or what is it that makes you feel this way? It kind of shifts the tone of the conversation. So that's also something I've been trying to practice and think about a bit more intentionally.

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. Just the way that we approach situations and the skill sets that we need to be successful in those situations. I've been listening to a lot of podcasts on listening, right? The skill set and how hard it is for people like me to actively listen to people.

Mm-hmm.

and then be able to reflect on those things. because I'm naturally, I like to talk, like, I like to, you know, tell stories and do those things. And it's, definitely been a skill set that I've been working on the last couple years. For work for you, when you're talking to these coaches, how do they help prepare you to listen better?

No.

Or are they helping you prepare to listen better?

So the conversations that I've been having with coaches, I think it's not so much about the listening better. I think it's more just understanding that coaching can look like a lot of different things and how they execute against.

Mm-hmm.

you know, their values and what's important and how they want to show up as coaches. Also, like more practical things like, okay, like what's your like business model? All that stuff. But all of them, all of them will place an emphasis on on being able to listen and asking the right questions.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's really just been more about understanding how they got to the point that they want to be coaches or understanding, I don't know, like what changes that they needed to make in terms of their own thinking to prepare to kind of take this kind of path for their own career. Yeah.

⁓ Vanessa, as you are in this transition period, what are some things you're doing now that's different than when you were going from Ernst & Young to FAA or even from when you were going from graduate school to Ernst & Young? Like what are some things that you're changing up this time around?

Hmm. So I think as I'm in this space now, one of the things that I'm really trying to be more intentional about is really understanding what is my goal in doing the next thing. And I say that because while I'm thinking about the coaching thing in the long term, I have to think about like short term. Okay, what income am I going to bring in? So thinking through, you know, like searching for jobs.

Right, yeah. Yeah.

my like having a title like senior manager or director may not happen. and being comfortable with that. like when I was deeply uncomfortable with the switch from being like a leader, senior manager to an individual contributor, but not being recognized for the experience that I had, I think being able to let go and just know that whatever I'm doing next is more of a stepping stone. may not necessarily be, it could be a destination. I don't know, but.

Mm-hmm.

being more open minded towards understanding this is a step in a bigger journey and not getting hung up so much on the prestige or the title. And also I think thinking about how that can be freeing because I don't need to kill myself necessarily or something that is not really the end goal.

Yeah, right. It's amazing how much your ego comes into play when you're looking at things, right? How do you how do you what types of things are you doing to help maybe keep that ego in check? When you're looking at these short term next possibilities? What are some things that you're doing to keep your ego in check?

Yeah. Yeah. Mm. talking through it with my friends, honestly. Yeah. Yeah, because I have had a number of phone calls where I'm like, can you believe this? This is what this is what's out here? Are you serious? And it's usually them saying, well, you could, because it if you really want the title, you could honestly just go back into consulting and you'll get that. But I don't think that's what you want. You want it.

You're right. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

So I think it's just that constant reminder that this is a small piece of a bigger story. And I also think, going back to what I was saying about like, I've always been a thing. I've been an honor student. I've been a whatever. The work that I've been doing to just focus on like, well, this is just Vanessa. So, like, I think it's just a lot of, like, trying to recenter with myself and remembering what's most important, but, like, I am truly grateful for the friends that I have that I, who can, like, I can reach back out to, who can, smack me back into, this is, this is what you're actually trying to do. Like, you've, and also remembering, I've accomplished so much already. It's like, you did the thing.

You have. Yeah.

There's nothing else for you to really prove. So yeah, I think those are a couple of things that I'm trying to do, but also giving myself the grace to know that I will probably backslide and that ego will come into play, but probably figuring out how to not let myself like stay in that space for too long.

Yeah. Yeah. It's such a it's such a slippery slope when you start to think about. what you want to invest your time into next and then you start to compound that with how is it going to impact how it look, you know, when I'm at the next job after that job or, you know, how is it going to position me for whatever it looks like in five years? And it's always it's always hard. It is always hard. And the other thing that you mentioned that I thought was super interesting was, and I did this too when I was younger, you know, just always having that next thing to chase, whether it's like Dean's List and stuff like that. But I also think the, and this is just my personal hot take, it was easier at least for me as a kid and as a young adult, because I knew what those titles were and I knew what those accomplishments were, right? It's like, okay.

Okay.

I want to get a 4.0 and then I want to do these things. And they were like very tangible things in my head. And the challenging thing about the situations that we're all in now is there isn't anything tangible out there. Nobody's telling you there's a Dean's list that you need to work for. And so it makes it exceptionally harder to position yourself to be successful in that way. And so you got to like think about it in slightly different ways.

Yeah, there's no roadmap. Yeah, and that, think going back to what you asked me the question about, like, what's the word that makes me nervous, that uncertainty, because it's like, don't, I feel like I'm navigating the woods without a compass, and I'm just like hoping for the best. But realizing, okay, your survival skills and your ability to make decisions, that's what you can rely on.

Mm-hmm.

Like I also said earlier, I think this is just going to be the way of the world going forward. Not just because of the place that like, you know, where you are in your career, where I am in my career. I think for everybody, no matter what level it's like, the world is changing so quickly. Like the roadmap's going to change and you're not going to know. So it's just being able to stay agile and stay centered and get comfortable with that uncertainty.

Mm-hmm. agree. Vanessa last question of the segment and take your time to answer this. But if you could have any title for your next job, and it could be a fake one or a real one, what would that title be?

I did this exercise with my coach earlier this summer.

So you should know the answer! You should know the answer here!

But the thing is, like, I didn't have, I didn't have an answer and I honestly like I hate to say it I still I still don't think I have it now because I don't think there is a title and maybe this comes from being somebody who's like a generalist and like just kind of goes like I mean maybe like problem solver would be my title but like I don't think that's it I think this is like the challenge of being like a generalist. I don't... I could be anything. The world's my oyster. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it speaks it speaks very well because I think generalists have this natural disposition to be inquisitive by nature. And so you're always, you know, being why and how things work and actually have the the commitment to follow up with some sort of action. There's a lot of people that just ask why and ideate all day. without doing anything. But I think to have sort of like that follow up of having a plan to figure out sort of like why that thing is the way it is, you know, you have to be wired a certain way. And I think you, I mean, your history shows that you've been doing that very well. And being a general, you know, I think sometimes it's hard when you're

Yeah. Yeah.

trying to interview for places and you say, hey, I'm good at everything and I'd like to know everything. But also, you know, when you're depending on sort of the situation, generalists are the best thing to have. Like if you're a startup, you want to hire a generalist, you don't want to have somebody who just does one specific thing and can't do anything else. That would be horrible.

Yeah, yeah, and I feel like that's just such a strength, I guess. And maybe this goes back to answering your original question about the title, but one of the biggest compliments I think I ever got or one of the ways someone described me was you're a utility player. I can put you in any position. I know you're going to be successful at it or you'll figure it out. Yeah, you're you're oh, someone's you're a Swiss Army knife. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ I was gonna say like the Batman utility belt. That's what I thought of initially. ⁓

yeah, that and that too, yeah.

⁓ man. Well, Vanessa, that wraps up our segment. I just want to say I appreciate you. I wish you well on the coaching stuff. You know, I know that's sort of like the long, long plan, but I think that'd be fantastic for you. Just, you know, with the few times that we've talked and understanding your story, I think you would be a fantastic coach. I wish you well there and thank you for joining us on the segment.

Thank you so much, Savan. This has been a wonderful experience. We're also really looking forward to see where you're going with the podcast and your memoir when it comes out. I think we're both in for very interesting ride in the next year or so. So I also wish the best for you. But thank you again for taking the time to chat.

Yeah. All right, my friend, I appreciate you. Have a good one. I'll talk to you later. All right, bye-bye.

You too. Bye.