The 'F*** Yes' Philosophy: Leslie Barber on Saying Yes Before You're Ready

Welcome to Life Between Titles. I'm your host, Savannah, and today I've got my new friend, Leslie Barber. Leslie, good morning.

Good morning.

So Leslie, I wanna start off our conversation with the book you just published. And I'm sure we'll get into how you got to publishing this book. But the one thing I wanted to start off on that stood out to me was this fuck yes philosophy that you have in the book. And you know, you you frame it as saying fuck yes to things that you know that are not illegal or doesn't get other people in trouble. but tell me a bit about that framing because I think for the most part that's almost a perfect way to capture a lot of what the audience, at least on Life Between Titles, is feeling

Sure. I have always been interested in doing lots of things and never let life kind of tell me what I can and can't do. And also I'm the type of person that knows a lot of people and goes a lot of places and has a lot of opportunities. early on someone I worked with gave me a book that was called Fuck Yes, and it kind of the premise was like

Yeah.

Right.

you can't say no to anything. So it was, you know, a little bit maybe raunchier than my life. But I I really liked that perspective because I felt like if you say yes to opportunities, even if you're kind of confused or not clear on what the outcome's gonna be, at least you don't have the what if. What if I didn't do it? What if I didn't, you know, listen to what they're offering or what if I didn't take that

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

job or that volunteer opportunity or meet that person. So that's it's kind of my way I live my life, which has led to a lot of interesting things. and here I am. So yeah.

Yeah.

Uh-huh. Yeah, we'll we'll talk all about those interesting things, but the book you just published is called Unemployable and it's not unemployable s period, but it's unemployable exclamation point, which is this emphatic statement that really captures the spirit of what you're trying to tell in this book. I want to start off on chapter one and

Yeah.

You talk about wanting to essentially do good work, take on the world, all these things, but it didn't go quite the way as you planned. And you've got this massive journey that that you talk about. tell me a little bit about chapter one and how you frame that. Like what essentially was the intention of setting up the book that way and you know, what finally sort of got you to a point 'cause this book was twenty eight years in the making, got you to the point where you just said, Fuck it, like I'm gonna publish this thing. This is going out the door.

It was.

Yeah. Well, I mean, as I talk about in the book, I when I was eighteen, my dad broke his neck ski racing. And I was a freshman in college, I was on the crew team, I was exploring life as an adult and everything just kind of ground to a halt in that moment. some of the things I wanted to do were not available to me for

Yeah. Wow.

almost forty years. but I kept on trying to do things that I thought would fill me, fill my soul, because I saw a need in the world. including putting this book out. as you said, it took twenty eight years to get it going. And it wasn't twenty eight years of me sitting and writing one chapter per year, just to clarify. Yeah.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It's twenty eight chapters.

There's forty chapters. is gathering life experience and looking for meaning in some of the stumbling blocks that are out there that we build ourselves or that life hands us and how do we deal with it. So that's kind of my subtitle is the psychological toll of proving your worth. So I felt like I had to prove to the world from an early age that I was going to like be the best caregiver, the best daughter, the best educated, the best you know, whatever it was I was doing that he was going to be the best. And the toll that took on me was a lot. And I've had therapy. but but that got me writing this book that really came from my soul. And when I decided to do it, it just fli it fell out of me.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Leslie, I wanna maybe ask you a somewhat personal question, but we we frame things in a way, especially for I think type A people, but just generally speaking, we frame things in a way where we talk about use the word you know, best. you know, as you're going through this journey and you've got all these gigs and jobs and trying to be the best at whatever that may be. In your head did you know what that looked like? Like what it what did best mean to you?

I didn't really know. I just I had been raised. never being being called like almost the best. You know, if I didn't score twenty points per basketball game, I needed to practice more to be the best. If I didn't win state track, I had to be the best. If I didn't have the four point I had to work harder. You know, so I kind of had that background that I internalized. And so by s being the best at all the things that I attempted, I didn't give myself a lot of room

Yeah.

Yeah.

for failure. And so I think that psychological toll that that tr trying to succeed took was based on that gap that was in there. So

Yeah. Yeah. I mean in in many ways like there's the the push for excellence gives you very little room for experimentation and failure. And I feel like those two s more times did not go hand in hand, where you want to try different things and you've got this very interesting juxtaposition of you you you have all these jobs you've had throughout career, but yet you have this force where you're trying to be the best at whatever job that is. And i in my head at least, as I'm going through and and reading the book and then talking to you, those conflict at times. How how have you sort of reconciled that over the years?

Over the years I definitely stopped getting my self worth out of my job. Early on, when I was I was doing social work, I really took everything home with me because if I didn't solve the world's problems that day, I was a failure. You know, not realizing the system that I was working in is set up for constant failure of

Yeah.

everyone in it. And as I got older and more experienced, I realized that if I put enough in, then I'm succeeding, regardless of the outcome or what someone else's impression is necessarily. And I think that is a lesson that younger kids or younger people, I guess, these days have to learn over time. I don't think you can hear

Yeah.

some old lady telling you like don't don't first take it personally. I think it's just something that unfortunately is a wisdom thing that I'm happy that I have for the most part. You know, it kicks back in occasionally, but mostly I work I do my day job and turn off the computer and that's all I think about. I mean I don't think about it again until I get back on there the next day. So

Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah.

Right, right. chapter one you've you've got this job list that I think is incredible because it reads very much like my job list, but sort of in a different sector altogether. But you you list that you've been a babysitter, which I've been snake handler, I've not been a stake handler, an organic farmer, a race director, HOA president, so on and so forth. And you know, for most people that read that list, it it could read very scattered and it could read as somebody who is maybe misdirected or doesn't have guidance, but you you wear that a little bit differently, especially throughout the characterization characterization through the book. how do you actually see that as you reflect on that by w writing this book?

I I see it as well I found a term that as I was researching kind of how to put the book out. It's called multipotentialite. And that's yeah, I had to practice. Yeah, so multipotentialites as a somebody else termed it, but it is exactly what sums up people like us. So you are interested in everything.

Yeah, I was trying to pronounce that and I like totally butchering it. So you got it. We'll just refer to it as the word. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And why not try? And maybe there's something different out there that's even more interesting. And you're also skilled at learning how to do things pretty quickly. I think that goes hand in hand. So it it is like a self repeating process. It's like, well, here's this opportunity to handle snakes. Okay, I'll do that and I'll

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I don't know if there's ever an opportunity to handle snakes that's a perfect one, let alone an imperfect one. But th I digress.

You just never know. Yeah. Or I mean in my case, like to coach high school sports. You know, I had been an athlete my whole life, but it wasn't until my mid fifties that I was coaching high school sports. you know, the opportunity came out and I was like, All right, let's do it and it was awesome. I loved it. You know, so but being mo multipotentialite does look strange on paper. And that was kind of the emphasis, like the reason I was going to write this book, because I'm like, I'm not the only one. And the more people I talked to, the more I read. It's like this is so common, especially you know, in people that maybe were the first child. It's not only, but there's a lot of firstborn children, type A personalities, people who perhaps were in the gifted

Mm-hmm.

education programs or s you know, especially that kind of education that is focusing on your potential from a young age and allowing you to think outside the box. Mult you know, there's Montessori type schools too that do that. So I think a lot of people are that way. And those of us that just kind of say, fuck yes, I'm gonna try that, I'm gonna try that, kind of trip through life because

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

stopping and staying with something for a long time is the challenge.

Yeah. That's actually a great segue to a line that I pulled out of your chapter and I want to touch upon that a little bit. you you say you're a master of reinvention and the quote I think from the from the book is as you can see I've dallied in many fields, which I actually love that line, because I just picture you going through this field of of flowers. And you go on to say, I think that's because the perfect job hasn't come along yet. And the question I have for you is as you were dallying in this field waiting for this perfect job, and in my head I'm I envision waiting for Godot or something like that that never comes, right? And and did you know sort of like what that perfect job will look like in your head?

Mm-hmm.

And my follow up question to that is how did you reconcile the difference between okay, this may be the perfect job and I'm gonna keep on pushing myself hard to be the best at that job versus saying, Yeah, this job is not the perfect job and I'm gonna quit and I'm gonna try something completely new?

Okay, well that's a big question. So what I envisioned always is that wherever I worked or whatever I was doing, volunteer, paid, whatever, I would be recognized for what I'm bringing to the position, what skills I have, and what potential I carry. And it's I feel like it's that that potential within me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I expected this perfect job, people would see that and elevate me. I would go I mean my dream from when I was younger was to like get into this organization and just go th up through the ranks until I was in charge and then retire and be on the board because I still had passion for whatever this place was. It didn't exist, but the one in my head did. And

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like that being recognized for that kind of passion and skills was what I needed. And I just I didn't get that over and over again. I was too you know, and there's a whole lot of reasons in the book why. but I think that was the key to that.

Yeah.

I see. Yeah, the the thing that stood out to me was this overlaying of the psychological toll that this process has on a person. And you know, after all the conversations I've had on the podcast, I know for a fact that that is a very real thing, the the toll that this process takes. I believe it was like I don't know, chapter nine or ten. You talk about the job application process as as an addiction, right? Like you're compulsively sort of like sending stuff out and you're you're waiting for something to come back. And what's funny is you compare it to like the slot machine where I could just see in my head you pulling down the handle and just watching the thing spin. well at what point, you know, as you're going through your own journey, did you realize that this was this had crossed the threshold of being this act of finding a job to something more psychologically consuming and and complicated.

I think I realized it a couple of years ago. Like I had been working on the book off and on over the years, but it had set aside for a while. And I was once again with my my clients had gone away. I'd completed projects. I had I was like, Well now I'm gonna find a job. And I was I'd had surgery, so I was on bed rest for a while. I'm like, this is the time, I have this opportunity. And I started that

Yeah.

Yeah.

slot machine, which is a great metaphor. Love that. So I started the slot machine process. And when you have nothing but time to promote yourself to a wide range of fields with the all you know, I can do all these things. it really did become like problematic. And it took even as I was writing the book and writing the last chapters

Right.

Right.

I'm still over here like, well, I gotta apply for that job. You know, I still look at you know, I get this email from LinkedIn. I'm like, ooh, I better click on that. That that could be the one. And I know I know it's not, and I have I've been less apt to do it, and at least instantaneously. But it's still hard. It's it's definitely, you know, you get that call and you're like, ooh, you want to do an interview? I'm like, you know, good, I can pull the handle again.

yeah. Yeah.

Right. Right.

Yeah, you know, it's it's it's this sort of at least for me, this this compound effect of of things. It starts off with you know, either being on LinkedIn or going on to some sort of job posting board and you searching for opportunities and then you go to your email and that's another sort of compounding factor of while these opportunities look A little bit closer, and then you click on it and you're applying for it, and you know that over a hundred people have applied in the last hour. You're like, well, I might have a chance. I don't know. So you take whatever 10-15 minutes to apply for it and you submit it. And then maybe you get a rejection later, or maybe you get something else. And then if you're lucky, you may talk to a person. And I just feel like that compound effect over time. just like adds that level of stress and and you know just completes that cycle of pain and suffering that people that are looking for jobs go through. you know you you talked about I think in the next chapter of that like this process being like waiting for a medical result, right? Like you're you're you're looking at your labs and you're thinking like what the fuck just happened? You know, how did How did my life get to this point? tell me a little bit about you specifically as you were going through this process of switching between projects and then trying to sort of find a full time gig and then getting one and then switching back. Like how have you sort of reconciled that and how how have you, you know, handled that throughout the decades?

Well, I I don't know that I handled it well. I took notes and I saved and I saved receipts. I mean the reason I started writing this book is because way back in nineteen ninety eight I started saving all the rejection letters that I'd gotten after graduate school. So I have a a file that I found when I was moving a few years ago.

I don't think anybody does, all I'm saying. Yeah.

Yeah.

I was like, wow, I still have all this. And I had the outline of the book from back then. but it's still the same cycle. Things of the the way things are done is different, but the way you feel as a job applicant is the same. Like it is kind of demoralizing, it's dehumanizing, it's very rude in many cases, how you're treated. And I feel like

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you.

When you talk to someone else who's job hunting in earnest, it's like this bond. You're like, I understand what you're going through, that feeling of just that hope is what's keeping you alive and this the constant crushing of it every day. And I think reapplying for other jobs is kind of just filling the hope basket to balance out that crushing, you know, that goes on.

Yeah. Yeah, and and and I think, you know, for there's so many layers to that, but for people that have committed time into improvement of some of some sort, whether it's a trade, you know, undergrad, graduate school, whatever degree you've gotten, and to still be sort of like in that position where you feel as if you're failing in some way. And you're like, well, what other degree do I need to get? Or what other certificate do I need to get to be able to like be at a point where I could be hired for this job? Back in nineteen ninety eight you talked about, you know, starting to save this and that's was that the first point you decided like, hey, I I may write a book about this? Or or was it further on down the line?

Well, no, I started outlining a book in nineteen ninety eight because I had I'd been working at that point as a social worker for a few years. I'd gone to back to graduate school in psychology, so it was organizational psychology, so kind of had a different angle. But as the rejection started coming, I was like, This isn't good. Like, why can't I get a job? I have all this background, experience, education, potential. Can't

Yeah.

Yeah.

they see what I am having to offer them. And so I thought, well, I will write a job hunting manual, thinking that by the end of writing this manual, of course I'd have a job that would tidy it like, look, it worked for me, it'll work for you. Here's the steps. And so it was a different book that I started writing. and then when I looked back on it after, you know, 20 years, I was like, okay, a lot hasn't changed. The process has changed, but the

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

emotional part absolutely hasn't.

Yeah. It's funny too because you describe use the word rebel, and I think that's a good word to use for many different reasons, but you describe this person who, you know, is a rebel is not somebody who has failed. They just, you know, don't want to sort of they don't fit into a certain stereotype. They sort of have their own path that they want to carve out. In nineteen ninety-eight Were you feeling that same way? Did you frame yourself the same way back then?

Probably a little bit. My education focus was a little bit obscure for those days. Like I had a my kind of secondary education was in wellness planning and wellness programming and organizations, which was very new back then. you know, so that was a little rebellious because I was like, Well, I know that this is gonna change your workplace. So let's

Yeah.

Let's fix that. Let's fix your workplace, fix your employees, and also I'll have a career in this and be a professional and be respected. So yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, what gosh, there there's just so much to unpack there. What from from from you know, that point where you were saving all these receipts, was that sort of an unconscious thing that you were doing? Because that's so many decades of artifacts that you've collected. did you know that you were gonna do something with it over the years?

Yeah.

Well, when I started like I said, when I started the job hunting manual, my thought was like the first page of each chapter would be my cover letter and the final page of each chapter would be the rejection letter and I had enough to write, you know, a small book. So and now I can write, you know, d war and peace. I have enough to still many, many books.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So it was just kind of a subconscious thing that I did, to do to save all that. And it's I think it's kind of fortuitous that I maybe was a pack rat for a while. So

Yeah.

Right, right. Leslie, I wanted maybe take it back and add a little bit of color to some of the things that we've been talking about. So you and I are both in the Pacific Northwest, and we know what this environment is like here, especially from an industry and work perspective. But for the people that don't know, tell the listeners a little bit about where you were born, where you grew up, sort of like what what influenced you.

Well, I was born in Montana. My dad worked for the railroad. So we moved every year or two. My whole early childhood. All of we lived all over the Midwest. And during one of those stints is when I got picked out to be in a gifted and talented program, which was one of the first in the country. and that was that was in Kansas City, Missouri. And I went to that program for about two years.

Okay. Where was that at?

And it was the best thing that ever happened in my life. It was incredible. They just they let us be ourselves and think big and learn whatever we wanted and learn from each other. It was like it was so incredible. And then

Wow.

Isn't that sort of ironic? I I'm sorry, but isn't that isn't that sort of ironic that these programs for gifted people, smart people, have so much flexibility to them. And this is probably a digression, but there's so much there that you can do in terms of exploring different things. But yet our education system that's supposed to be, you know, accelerating the the learning of our kids has so much rigidity to it. I just find that so ironic. Like it's so crazy to me.

Yeah, it's ab it's very ironic. that's why I put my kids in Montessori school when they were you know, in kindergarten and younger, just because I wanted them to at least have that option to be able to be free thinkers before you know the school system got their hands on it. And as an aside, my oldest never thrived in the traditional school system.

huh.

Mm-hmm.

No matter what we did, every school we tried it didn't work. And I have a whole I could tell I write a whole book about his success right now because he figured it out himself. But for me, my parents moved again when I was thriving for a change. And a f couple of schools later I ended up in a two room schoolhouse in rural eastern Washington, where I went to north of Spokane, very far.

Right.

Yeah.

Cannes? wow, like up there. Like Canada essentially. Yeah.

Towards almost Canada. And so my class was third through sixth, third through fifth grade. There was 12 kids in my class, one boy. And I by the time I got there, I had already completed all the textbooks that they had available. Like I was way ahead and I had nothing to do. I was so bored and it was terrible. And

Holy smoke. Holy smoke.

So they had me like teaching kindergarten, doing my own thing, which I just would sit and read, you know, Edgar Allan Poe. There's something uplifting for a fifth grader to be doing. That's what I did. And you know, I went to the regular local school district for middle school and high school, but by then I had lost my passion and it it didn't come back the way I had it early on. And then so I moved

Mm.

After high school in Eastern Washington, I moved back to Seattle for college in nineteen eighty seven, where I've mostly lived ever since.

Mm-hmm. What did the the the the passion that you had before and after I I guess like tell me a little bit about what that passion was like before. How did it transpire? How did how did it sort of like, you know, end up showing in your life and then afterwards, like what did that look like?

I mean, I think if you looked at me in third and fourth grade, I was, you know, a tall, awkward weirdo, but I had joy and I had a feeling of being supported in what I was interested in. And my parents were supportive, you know, in that, you know, we had whatever we needed to access.

Yeah.

extra knowledge in our life and extra skills. I mean like you should see my ability to skin a deer. You I could I can I I could do a lot of weird weird side skills. I have you know, I'm pretty good with a gun. But

You gotta show me one day. Hell yeah. Zombie apocalypse, you're golden.

But I'm I'm on the team over here. I'm on the winning team. and a lot of people have told me that. So but but I think I lost that like that joy of absorbing knowledge and it became just kind of a slog to be able to share my knowledge with others, which is probably really annoying at parties, but you know, in workplaces.

Ha ha

Yeah.

That's what you're kind of trying to do. At least to get in the door.

Yeah. What do you think what do you think was the the one of the or maybe not even one, the series of things when you went to that small school in eastern Washington that really dampened your your passion and your joy?

Ooh, there's a lot done back there.

Just think of this as a therapy session, but we're publishing it to the world.

Yeah. that sounds great. Well, I mean it just like I said, I had already completed all of the textbooks. You know, so to go into a classroom and they're like, Well, here's what we're gonna do for math, and I'm like, Well, I did that like two years ago and there there wasn't anything else. So it was kind of just that that sudden stop was hard and being in a very small community was hard. 'Cause I had come from a bigger area, you know, we lived in the city, prior to that. And that was it was rough. It was and also I was, you know, like I said, I was a tall, really awkward person. Like I was a foot taller than my teachers at that point. so I was good at basketball, I found out. So, you know, I got on the school basketball team and did that for my whole life. So that was fun. But

Mm. Yeah.

the the struggle to kind of find myself in a small space without room to grow is tough.

Yeah. I mean that analogy is is is so appropriate for a lot of things that people are going through now. You know, we talk about joy and passion and people doing things that make them passionate all the time as this abstract, you know, concept where you tell people, especially for younger people, hey, like what brings you joy? That's what you should be sort of like striving to do. But at the same time, it's it's hard because you don't know what brings you joy. depending on where you are in life, right? And you know, for you, did that joy ever come back, whether it was in college or after that? Like did that ever sort of come back in a different capacity or a different way?

Yeah, I mean of course I've had, you know, moments of joy. you know, I started doing triathlons in my thirties and became completely obsessed with it and was good at it. So that helped that helped. but of course I spun that into then being on a team where we coached new women triathlete and you know, so I took it beyond just participating in triathlons, but I became an

Yeah. That's crazy.

a coach and you know all those things that went along with it. But I had I was very passionate about it and I respect it a lot. And it was in a lot of ways it was like the gifted program because you are told you can do whatever you want. You can be as good as you can be. There's no boundaries. But however you are is great as long as you're here. And so that that community was really good for that.

Yeah.

I'm still I'm I'm in the cycling community still. The rest of my body has broken down too much over time. But but you know, and I find joy my kids especially bring a ton to my life and I've they're probably so tired of hearing my mantras and gr you know, how to have that joy and how to explore their own needs and

Yeah.

Yeah.

and futures, you know, but I hopefully it have helped them, you know, growing up to become who they are c most capable of being and being happy about it. So

Yeah.

Right, right. And I mean, what's what's your general sort of take on the balance between trying to figure out what types of jobs or gigs or projects or even skill sets that you need to build, versus the things you have to do. Like maybe you're an accountant and you totally totally hate numbers, but the accountant job just brings you a shitload of money, right? And and you're I'm stuck in this fucking office, you know, eight hours a day, and I've been doing this for six years. And at some point, you're you're so tightly wound in in that cycle that it's hard to break free. But you know, your journey, and really sort of the emphasis of this book has been about the total opposite of that. And I feel like that is something that the listeners on this show, one, to embrace that. concept is very hard because it it means that you have to position yourself in a way where you can accept failure, but you can also accept growth in different things, right? You can go out and learn different things. And and so what what about sort of like your journey has has helped you get to that point where you can take on something new or you can put yourself in a vulnerable position where you're like, I don't know shit about snakes, but I'm gonna learn about them.

Okay.

Right. I don't know shit about HOAs, but I'm gonna go read the bylaws and figure it out. Right. So what what did that look like?

I I think it just comes from my own like f faith in myself. You know, I have never thought I couldn't do something and I'm pro I've I'm probably wrong. And I talk in the book about, you know, I was applying f when I was in my twenties for like CEO positions because I had all the things on the checklist and I had a lot of passion, so why not? And I look back on that and it's like

Yeah. Yeah.

brother, that's yeah, there's something that's some time that needed to pass for that sort of thing. And I didn't have the concept of even what it meant to be a CEO back then, like I do now, and I would never do that job. it's not on my it's not on my list. but yeah, I just think following your heart following my heart.

Yeah.

I just did it and I self promoted my s all the time. Like that was that's a weird thing that I d I don't know if I'm the only one, but I feel like I've always had to self promote. Like I've had my own business, a couple of different businesses, you know, so I'm always out in the world like, here's my brochure, here's my card, do you know about this? You know, I'm always shil you know, and I was had I was a sort of bread baker out of my home during COVID.

Mm-hmm.

You know, someone's like, Do you need bread? I got bread. You know, whatever it is. I'm always just I feel like I'm always in this self promotion mode 'cause I'm I got a thing I'm doing. it's just I'm not alone in that. And that's that multipotentialite thing that we talked about. people I think that are like that are they want other people on the journey with them. It it can be lonely if you're the only person that does this stuff. So it's like, well I

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I bake bread but I teach bread. You can come take a class and then you also bake bread. So Uh-huh. It's like I'm trying these triathlons, but I coach triathlons too. So come on out. That's just I guess I'm a pusher. It's a good thing I didn't go into drugs.

Yeah. Yeah. I got I got something for everybody, right? It's like a one stop. Mm.

Well if you were a drug dealer you'd be selling everything it sounds like

I would have enough money to live on. Yeah.

man. Leslie, you you touched on something that is in the book, but it's also very apparent in in conversations that I've been having lately, but around resilience, right? And you mentioned that a couple of times. And I think the ability for people to build up resilience is very underrated in many ways. Because it you you're not naturally born with it, I believe. You you have to go through the motion of understanding how to do it. You have to have a certain framework and you know, whether that's going through therapy or listening to podcasts or whatever that may be, right? To to give yourself that. But, you know, on the other side of this, you have been rejected from jobs or whatever hundreds of times probably over the years, if not thousands of times. And At at the surface, both of those things feel like they conflict with each other consistently, where you feel like you're like, I shouldn't be resilient. But then again, it's like I just got another nail on top of my head and you know. how do you hold both of those things at the same time? Like how do you have this self this this self confidence and resilience, but at the same time you're constantly sort of like getting rejected? Like how how have you sort of held those things together?

Well, I think what resilience does is it kind of builds a shield around you. So that the more rejection you get, the more you're like, Yeah, I knew, I knew it was coming. Like you just let it bounce before it hits your soul as much. And I think that as it starts when you're younger and you start getting rejections, it's in your soul and it hurts very badly to hear no. But as that kind of becomes an external shield, I mean you can

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

extrapolate this into any part of life, probably my therapy friends would be proud of me. But you know, as that be as your as your internal like pain becomes your external s expectation, it's not as hard on you, but it's still you still have to address it and face it. But, you know, now I c if I get a rejection like whatever, 'cause this I don't even know what what it was that I was rejected from because I don't spend as much time mourning what I didn't have. So I think the resilience early on is like every job you apply for, it's like, okay, I mean this is for me. And and I I had a list in my book about how you compare it to like starting to date somebody. Like, this is the one and we're gonna get married and we're gonna have kids. And you know, you're having this job expectation, like this fantasy where I'm gonna have this job and I'm gonna

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Become president and you know, whatever it is. And then none of that plays out and it's like, I'm devastated. And I just I don't get devastated anymore. Some I get more disappointed in how people handle providing the rejection to people. so I I think I've just turned into a mom. I'm disappointed. I'm just disappointed.

Yeah.

Yeah. Uh-huh. man. I I I feel you to the soul. Leslie, I wanna read to you a sentence from chapter eight and ask you a follow up question on it, but the sentence reads l as such. So you say, Knowing who you are and showing that in every part of your life is much more important than being able to drop a job title into a conversation.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I absolutely agree with this. But my question to you is how do you get to a point where you know who you are? Like what does that even look like? Because and I you know, the more I run this podcast and the more conversations I have, the the harder it gets to really understand who we are as people, especially as our universe evolves, things come in and out. Things get lost, things get added. To you, how does that sort of transpire?

I think it's just for me again it's a matter of letting time pass and kind of growing that ability and becoming a ki the kind of person that's multifaceted. So when you do have a chance to have a conversation with someone, it's not like well, I'm you know, the director of this blah blah blah and I here's my staff and here's what I do and here's my job. I mean and that's not

Mm-hmm.

And that's who I am, you know, and it it gets old. And once you start meeting people at a different level, and it's like, you know, I love hiking and I love dogs and I love you know, I work on political issues and I volunteer and I read and I write and I also have a job, you know, I think that just makes life more interesting. And so to kind of de learn to when you talk to other people.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Before you're like, what do you do? Just say who are you? And or ask the questions to find out who they are. And it's so much more valuable, you know, if you're interviewing someone for a job, who are they? Because they're gonna be with you all day, every day. You know, you should like them on a human level, or at least understand them. So

Yeah.

Yeah, I I love that. I love that. Are there are there things that has happened in your life that has stood out just in terms of you know, ways that it's changed your perspective of what a job looks like or where you want to commit your time in terms of, you know, a craft or a skill that that actually brings in some money? I I would imagine, you know, like having kids is definitely one of those things, but are there other things that sort of have has influenced that?

Yeah, I mean I did try out to be a model back in the olden days. Did you I was Well I have a chapter in the book about it that it's pretty it's it was pretty horrible. It was pretty horrible.

tell me what was that like? What's that process I've never tried that. What does that even entail? For the readers, what for for the listeners, I apologize, what does that really entail?

Well, it was I was like twenty years old and this was my s my phase where I had, you know, dyed my hair black. I was smoking, I was pasty, goth, you know, all the things. And my my dad's like, Hey, my friend is having works for the Bon Marche. Come and model come try out to be a model. And I was like, My dad thinks I'm pretty. Okay. So there's therapy in there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

So I went to this modeling tryout and I had I didn't I was not model built. I had no background. I didn't have a headshot, so I gave him my senior picture.

Mm-hmm. huh.

And the pr actual walking the runway was the most terrifying thing in my entire life. I I almost died, I think, in that moment. And I did they I just remember everybody just looking at me like, what just happened? And I I finished my little walk out and I went home and I was like, what did I just do? So I knew that was not the the path I wanted to stay on.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean that's you know, on the bright side in the startup world and the tech world, you know, we talk about failing fast. Right? Like put something out and don't use it. That feels like a failing fast moment for you.

I got

Yeah. Yeah. It was super fast.

What if if if if one of your kids wanted to to do something like that and you knew that that could happen, what would you tell them?

Well, you know, I've never stopped them from doing what they wanted to do. I had my one son is a musical theater, so there you go. my other son's an artist. So there's a lot of hope behind those careers, but also giving them permission to to do it and to try it and if they love it and they're good at it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

then that's all I want. You know, I don't want them going through their life. Well, what if I hadn't tr you know, what if I didn't do that? What would I do? So I think that's the advice for everyone that I would offer is like, if you're if you want to try something, try it. And if it sticks, then great. You've you've overcome a big barrier.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well Z, I wanna talk a little bit about the last chapter, and I'm not gonna give it away, but it's about this full circle moment where you come back to the craft of writing and the act of publishing. And this thing has been in front of you all these years. And it in in some ways, because I'm going through the process as well.

Yeah.

Not not publishing yet, but but the writing piece of it. in some ways I am trying to also understand what this this purpose is of going through this act of coming up with dialogue to describe my life in some capacity. For for you, was the publishing of the book really the answer you were looking for, or was it the finishing of the book, the writing piece of it? the answer that you're looking for, or was it something else?

I think the finishing of the book, honestly. But then I loved how it finished as a book. Like I was so happy with how it ended that I was like, I am excited to share it. I just feel like it ended on a high note with it's it's funny. And I was like and so I I was like, Well, I'm gonna publish it and I hired some experts here and there to help.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

With the things I didn't know how to do. And and it exists in the world and it's being purchased and read. And I love it. And I'm very proud of it. because I feel like I resonate with a lot of people. And I hope that that's like my hope for the whole book is that it starts this dialogue in organizations, in workplaces, in families, like what Who are we and what do we do in this world to feel good about that? And how do we pay our bills at the same time? You know, there's that. And so if you can match those somehow, but talk about it. I think it it will change the world. And that was the first sentence of my book that I wanted to change the world by doing good things. So this is my good thing. There you go, world. So yeah.

Right.

There you go. what's what was what was the hardest po part, aside from this taking twenty years to come together? But what was explained to the listeners who may be in the same boat, right? They may want to write a memoir about something or maybe a a series of poems to describe you know the things they're going through. But as somebody who's gone from beginning to end

Yeah.

and this is not an overnight thing, right? The your journey has been vastly over a vast amount of years. W what are some tips that you would give to people that are in this process right now that you'd like them to know?

Well, I would say first of all to know that their own experience and their words about it are valuable and not to self-edit as you're starting to write it down. I mean some write different writing groups and the thing we talk about is the messy first draft. And so if you can just sit down and get everything out without overthinking it, like that's the hardest part because it's it's way easier to write a paragraph and go back and go, hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

I'm not sure. I'm gonna change this word and that word and and just stop the process that's happening with the flow. So if you can get that draft out, it's that's like the hardest thing to understand. For that was for me the hardest thing. Because I'm always like, I gotta have the perfect paragraph. But this one this once I wrote my chapter titles and knew the direction I was gonna go, it was it was easy.

Right.

Yeah.

Because it as a memoir based nonfiction, it was easy to fill the stories in that matched my theories. And that part was very enjoyable because it validated for me all of these crazy experiences that I've had. You know, I've had a lot of weird shit happen in my life. And to be able to kind of step back from it and be like, well, how is this useful for people?

yeah, yeah.

What how will this help people? And not only to feel like, that happened to me too, or something similar happened, but how do you take that and go forward from there? Like that that piece of it was very like probably the most satisfying part of writing the book. And my other advice is hire an editor. That was or and have other people read it before you think it's ready to publish, because I thought it was ready a year ago.

Mm-hmm.

Ha that's idea, yes. Yeah.

And then I look back on it and like, thank God I didn't you know, I I had people help me and kinda I tore it apart many times to get it into the condition that I feel that I'm happy it is in now. So yeah.

Yeah.

Did you did you always feel confident about the book? And and maybe let me just reframe this. Was there ever was there ever a point where you were like, you know, I've got all these disparate ideas and generally it's coming together, but I don't know if it's book and publish worthy. were you always pretty confident that this is gonna go out in some form or fashion?

I'm still not confident about it. I should have no. I felt I again it goes back to like my personality type where I feel like everything I have is, you know, somebody should appreciate it because it's so good. You just have to hear what I have to say. but there's a lot I still it it's the most vulnerable thing I think I've ever done is publishing it. Because I've been writing for years.

Okay.

Yes.

Right.

I have seven novels I've completed and not published. and this is the first one I've let out and not the last one. There's more in editing right now coming out. But having it like the day it was published was I was beside myself emotionally, like I didn't know what to do with the energy that I was having. I was like, my god, there's because there's a lot of personal stuff in here. and a lot of vulnerability.

Mm.

Yeah.

And that was hard. And so I think if you're publishing something similar to understand like that process of going public with your internal stuff is very weird. It's it's hard. But then as time goes on and you get the feedback where people thank you for what you said and and say, you know, what you've said changed how I thought about something or changed what I did about something, like then it's like, okay.

Yeah.

This was worthwhile. So

Yeah. It's interesting to me, you know, you've got these seven novels that you haven't published, but yet you've published the one that's the most personal. how did you how did you end up choosing this one to publish before the other ones?

That's a question. It just it came out complete. Like I felt like it had all the parts that it needed. I needed to kind of reconstruct it. Whereas my other books are fiction and I'm not a trained writer. Like that's not my background. So there was a lot of tripping and fumbling. that I instead of addressing, I just moved on and wrote another book. So

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This one was more straightforward. I was in a writing group for nonfiction at the time, so it made sense to work on this one. And I just I always loved it because I'd started it when I was 28 years old. And it's it's always been kind of in me. So it was good to to do it. And the others are coming in some shape or you know, we'll see how they how they end up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But and I just started a new one last week too because why not? Why not start a new book?

Ooh Why not? Why not? I know that's I I think that's the thing that probably gives my family the most amount of both hope but also the amount the the highest amount of consternation is my why not energy. 'Cause like this morning I was I had a business idea for a while and I'm sitting here prototyping it and Claude and and then I show my wife, she's like Why do you have another thing that like don't you have three other things? Like why the fuck are you doing this other thing? I'm like, why not? Why not do it? So Yeah.

Exactly. I I feel yeah. Yes. Yeah. I I write comedy with my sister. She's a stand-up comedian. So I why not? So we I get this like together her and I are are like, why not? And we just like not only write comedy but also come up with 700 business ideas every time we get together, which is every day just about. So it's

Why not?

Yeah yeah. Yeah.

My little brain, it gets its work out. like keeps me young, I guess, but why not?

Yeah.

I've got a series of very unrelated questions that are sort of quick hitting and I'd like you to answer them with the first thing that comes to mind. Sounds good. all right. let's start with an easy one. Who's your who's your favorite author right now?

Okay.

Okay. Mm-hmm.

that's tough. I I just finished Amanda Knox's book. So I really loved her latest. So I'm gonna say Amanda Knox today is my favorite.

Today. Okay. All time favorite then. Who would that be?

All time I have a very interesting old Herman Wook and he wrote Winds of War, old books, they're long, and I have I love his writing style and so he's one of my favorites.

Hmm. Yeah I don't know.

Awesome. Awesome. what's a color that represents you right now?

Black. I d it's always my favorite color. I wore color today, but I get a lot of pressure to to color my wardrobe.

Yeah.

Yeah I'm a big fan of black as you can as you can tell. what's what's a word that what's one word that scares you the most today?

Yeah.

Probably helplessness.

I don't like to be in a position where I can't take care of myself and others.

Mm-hmm. What's what's a word that gives you the most hope right now?

Democracy.

Hmm. Tell me a little bit more.

I just hope our country can turn around so that our next generations can have opportunities that they deserve. And I'm working to make that happen as much as I can.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that word too. I like the word too. Leslie, as we wrap up our conversation here, I like to ask all my guests more reflective type questions, going back. is there as you sit in your position now and you've just published this incredible book and you're now going out and telling the the the world about it, as you reflect upon the last you know, twenty, thirty years. Is there anything about the journey that you've had that you would change? if you could change only one thing?

Absolutely. I've written a written a book about it. I had a lot of responsibility for my dad's life after he bro had became quadriplegic. and I wish that I had established boundaries at a younger age or at at all with his needs versus my life choices. and that's a big one. because I don't want to regret

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

my life and I don't want to feel negative about his because it was just the situation we were in. But if I could have changed anything, it would have been that situation that would have maybe allowed me to spread my wings further than than I did. I have a younger sister, yeah, I have a younger sister who I write comedy with. So Barbie Applegate, she's a comedian.

Mm-hmm.

Do you have brothers or sisters? I don't think I have

That's right. Do you do you think she'd feel the same way? I guess you you guys are both

Yes. Yeah.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. what is the you know, as you're writing and you're doing your novel and your your comedy and your memoir, what is sort of the through line across all those things as you're looking back on your career?

I think what I what I lean into is kind of the internal motivation of people's actions and why why they do something. Is it because the society expects it of them? Is it because they don't know what else they can do? Like they've been told by somebody they can't move out of that.

Mm-hmm.

Or are they just free to do whatever? And that's what my next book is kind of on. And I also have a trilogy in the same similar angle as that. So

What what what what's your trilogy? Is it fiction, non fiction, sci fi?

It's it's fic it's fiction, women's fiction. and it's pretty complete. I just haven't moved it forward. So I I'm using some of the ideas of it in my next book that I'm writing. It's it's compli I'm writing an adult choose your own adventure book, but it's not it's not like does the dragon attack you or do you you know, climb down the ladder. It's it's a bigger

Yeah.

as bigger internal factors that affect people's decision making processes. So just a little just a little easy book to write.

Interesting.

Interesting. Yeah, I'd be excited. I mean there's so many layers there to to unwrap.

Yeah. There's eight endings, so

Is that you know back in the day, so I'm I'm forty six, right? And and I remember there was a series of books I can't r I th it was called Yeah, so like is this formatted and structured like that, but more dense? fantastic. I love those books.

Mm-hmm.

Choose your own adventure. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We all I mean, our you know, there's a wide generation or two that had those you bought them at the scholastic book fair. Yeah. Yeah. So I did build the architecture of my book based on those 'cause I didn't have any idea how to path each decision. So I have that all s mapped out now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Gosh, that would be a cool website too. You just go and read it and then you're like taken to different places. I can just see so many permutations of that. All right, well Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like I'm like thinking about it. I'm like, how would I build this thing? Another idea that I want to put

Mm. Mhm. It'll be good on Kindle 'cause you can click back and forth. So yeah. So anyone out there s who sees this wants to get your get your hands on my idea and publish me, give me a call.

Leslie, last question, my friend. let's fast forward twenty years. We've gone twenty years in the past, let's fast forward another twenty years. so twenty years down the line, yeah, your your kids they stumble upon our conversation and they're they're listening to you and me talk about all these things. What is the one thing that you hope they get out of our conversation today?

Okay.

I hope they they see that everything I ever did in my life was for them.

Mm-hmm.

The decisions I made, they at the root was like, how will this affect my kids' future and my kids potentials? And it really was. and I think in reality they'll probably go, I didn't know mom knew how to turn on a computer.

But yet here you are taming snakes and being HOA president probably at the same time.

Exactly. No, those those different years. So yeah.

Yeah, that's that's fantastic. That is fantastic. well for the listeners that are out there, I will put the link to Leslie's book in the description and there it is. I actually I love that cover. I love the zebra. and the black, of course. And the black. So we'll we'll put that

Wonderful. Thank you.

Of course. Yes, I did hire somebody to do that for me. I I I did not do that myself.

We'll put all the links in there. and Leslie, is there any last thing you want to shout out or you want the listeners to know?

I mean, I'm open for other discussions. If people want to keep talking to me, if you can find me on Substack, please subscribe. and just follow your heart and say fuck yes to things. If that if this is gonna inspire you to try something new even for an hour, do So

Yeah. Okay. There you go.

Fuck yes.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Love that ending, my friend. I appreciate you coming on and I wish you all the success in the world on the book, but also on the the new books that are coming out.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited.

All right, we'll talk soon. All right, bye bye.

Okay. Bye, thank you.