She Left Law in a Panic. Then Her Husband Suggested Golf. Then She Found Her Real Calling.

Welcome to Life Between Titles. I'm your host, Savannah, and today I've got my new friend, Lori Eber. Lori, good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for having me on. We're gonna have a good time talking about career change. Why not?

We're gonna have a blast. We're gonna have a blast. And you know, your your career and your story is so fascinating to me because it spans a bunch of different things, a bunch of different sectors. And I wanna start maybe at a point where you've had this transition going from a corporate attorney to this metabolic health coach. And and be real with me, Lori. Because this is the type of show that it is. You know, when you

Don't worry. You don't have to ask me twice.

So when you walked away from law, right, that last day, did you celebrate or did you immediately open up your laptop and start working again and trying to figure out what the hell you're gonna do next?

No, I panicked. I panicked big time. And then my husband came up with what turned out to be just a horrendously bad solution. Well meaning, of course. He says, Honey, you should learn how to play golf so we could play together and have fun out there on the course. And I went, you know

Yeah. Tell me.

Athletics, something to do. I know it's a big time consuming thing, but I got nothing but time. What the hell? Worst thing I ever tried to do.

Yeah. What was what was it about golf that just didn't like attract you?

it's not athletic, it's very technique driven, and I could never get to a competence, a competence level where I felt like I deserved to be on the course. And my husband would tell me all the time, you're better than most women golfers. And I'm like, that's not my standard. I can't do this. I stink. And one day I'm like halfway good, and the next day I'm a total disaster.

Yeah.

I hear ya. Yeah.

Yeah.

And we had we had started down this road and I took lessons from every single pro at one club and another one in another club because I'm left handed and he was a lefty. And it was the only time we would fight was on the golf course. I'm like, honey, this is not working. Fight? We don't fight. I said, we fight all the time. So it took him like I tried for a long time, I really did, and especially we go on vacation in Hawaii and you know, it's a beautiful place, but I just I hated it. And it's the love of his life and it works for him. So he just has to do it separately. I'm sad, but I was a total total dismal failure and I can't keep doing something I'm so bad at that I don't care about that takes so much time for so long. So that was the first place I went. What a

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rat hole that turned out to be.

So well so so so tell me like y so you you tried golfing. Did you try anything else? I mean, this golf stint, did it last like six months? Was it a year? How long?

Yeah, and it wasn't I was looking that I knew that I wasn't gonna be a golf pro or anything. No, it took me ten years to find wellness coaching, my passion in life. Ten. I went down a bunch of roads. there's one that I still sustain, but it was the first thing was just the panic of who am I without Lori the lawyer.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because when I left I had no game plan because I was too concerned with wrapping up things properly and leaving my house in order, which by the way they didn't take advantage of, but that's just a sore subject with me. and I remember saying at the time Hillary Clinton was talking about, I don't know, Bill's affairs or something, and she said something about she she's not the kind of person who can stay home and bake cookies.

Yeah.

So that's what I said. I think that was in my parting email. I said, I have no idea what I'm doing next, but I ain't gonna be baking cookies for the rest of my life. I'm going to find something else to do that I enjoy that makes me feel like I'm useful and I was definitely looking for less stress.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean the the the law profession, first of all, takes so fucking long to get into. It's a major commitment of your life. And

It is, but it's not as bad as medical school because it's three years and you're out and there's no internship. It's on the job paid internship because you come out knowing absolutely nothing about how to practice law, but nobody talks about that.

Yeah. No, no kidding, right? No kidding. I mean how so give me a little bit of background on like how you eventually got into law 'cause I think that that that really sort of colors where you are now. W did you immediately know you wanted to get into it after high school or

Yeah.

Here's how I got into it. A television show called Perry Mason. That's that's what did it. He won every week. He won every week. And I thought, shit, I want to do this. This is fun. And so I didn't have a major in college. I kind of limped my way through with social studies, and then I took a bunch of women's studies because what the hell they counted, and I was interested. But there was one moment.

god. No kidding.

Yeah.

I was at Penn State the first two years and because I was undeclared, you had to go see some kind of career counselor. That was a mandate. So I went to see the career counselor and he said, What do you want to do? And I said, I want to go to law school and be a lawyer. And you know what the idiot told me? You'll never get in. I suggest you do something else.

Yeah.

God.

And I went, you just watch me and you know, I I have been tempted to track him down, see if he's still alive and I can, you know

Yeah, what is his name? We we'll track him down for you, the internet.

I don't know his name, but I I certainly wasn't going back for round two, but I could not believe he told me that and I just took it as incentive to prove you wrong. I can't believe he just said that to me.

You know what's funny, Lori, is you were the second lawyer on the show. and the first one was a friend of mine, her name's Gladys. She has a couple of practices actually in in Southern California, doing immigration law. And she also spoke about how it wasn't her it wasn't her like college counselor or advisor in undergrad, but when she got into UCLA, it was a dumpster fire just in terms of like discrimination and

Yeah.

you know, all these things. it sounds like you went through similar things during your

Well, when I got into law school it was o it was almost fifty fifty male female by that time. However, if you're talking about law firm life, there were not a lot of women partners. It was very, very hard to make partner and I struggled for a very long time. And I have a very interesting story if you want to hear it about how I made partner. Because to me it's it's laughably, incredibly stupid.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean we'll we'll definitely

We'll definitely get to that 'cause I love that teaser going into it. But so you you you eventually, you know, did exactly the opposite of what this advisor did, which was get into law school to start practicing law. Tell me about that process for you, when you eventually you declared a major, you eventually graduated from undergrad and then got into law school. What was that like?

So yeah.

Right.

Well, I applied to a bunch of different law schools. I got into Hastings and the price was right and I was living in San Francisco and it was there, so I went. I detested law school. It was horrible. It was boring as hell, and I didn't understand why I needed three years to learn how to read a case. Because that was the curriculum and I thought, I'm not that dumb. I kind of got this part. Do we really need a third year?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I couldn't imagine.

It was very competitive and I couldn't believe it, but I did pretty well. After the first year, I was first in my class, which just shocked the hell out of me because I'm no genius. And I got some awards and I got some grant money and scholarship money, and cool. So I survived the process. It was very unenjoyable. And then I made a little mental mistake. I decided I would follow a boyfriend to Chicago.

Yeah.

wow.

Yeah.

But I'm it wasn't that much of a mental mistake because I had headed my bets and taken the California bar first, just in case I wanted to come back. Which is exactly what I did. And the bar is just the last horrible hurdle. It at the time it was very primitive because you would take the exam first, you had to take a review course to pass the exam, because you had to learn how you

Yeah.

How you take this exam. It wasn't so much about the information, but how do you, you know, figure out how to do it? So then you wait several months for the results, which you can imagine is very unsettling. And so at that time, the way to get the results first was to go to the Bar Association building in downtown San Francisco and they posted paper that said who passed. And you got up there and you

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

wow.

prayed that your name was on the list. That's how you found out. It was horrible.

Yeah. That's wild. Is it like a public thing? Like everybody is in a place and you you sort of pass or not?

No, it wa it was a locked door, but it was posted on the window, on the plate glass. And somehow you found out when the post was going up and you scurried down there and you h held your breath and hoped you didn't you know your name was showing up.

God.

Yeah, no shit. That's wild.

Yeah, that's how you found out. Pretty nasty.

So what what so tell me about this Chicago boyfriend. You you know, you you'd you'd finish law school, you'd pass, you followed him out there. What what happened?

So I applied to a bunch of big firms in Chicago and I got a job at a very big firm, which was good because when you get out of law school, you want training. You need training. And the way you get training is you go to a big firm and you work your butt off, but they train you. So I practiced there for three years.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

I didn't like the practice very much because they had such huge cases that a new person wasn't allowed to do much of anything because there was too much at stake. the only interesting case I ever got on was there was a fire in the MGM hotel in the eighties, I guess it was. And for that one it was all hands on deck because there were millions of depots all over the place, so I got to actually start taking depositions.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And I actually got relocated to Las Vegas for about three months off and on. And I got to depose Kerry Grant. How cool is that? Because he had the bad luck of having been on the boards. Everyone showed up for that. And what I remember the best was the location of these depositions. It was at a shopping mall and upstairs was an aerobics studio.

What?

god.

So we were fighting for the sound all the time.

You'd think they'd have more money considering it's such a big case to get you like

I know it was bizarre. Why didn't they, you know, go to some executive suite type thing, but that's where it was. And I lived in a condo there with other people who were going in and out taking depots and stuff. Kind of fun. So after three years of ridiculously intense winters and horrible summers, I said, I'm out of here. And I moved back

Holy shit.

Yeah.

California interviewed and got a job and stayed there twenty something years.

What what was the the straw that broke the camel's back in Chicago? Was it the workload or boyfriend or what was that?

A combination of the horrendous weather. I mean, I didn't know car batteries froze. I had no idea that was like a thing. And I remember I lived north side near the lakefront. I remember literally being blown off my feet with ice underneath, falling on my butt trying to get to the bus stop in the morning. Not pleasant. My boyfriend was like so so, but it wasn't really going anywhere.

Yeah.

So I said, I'm out of here. I don't know why people live in Chicago all because they complain. They're normal. They understand the weather's terrible, but they stay. I'm like, what is wrong with you people? And the best I could figure out and it applied to my boyfriend was that it's a very family oriented place, and you just stay there because that's where your family is. I couldn't get behind that concept because I grew up in Manhattan and my brain was I can live anywhere in the world I would like.

Yeah.

But I ain't stayin' here.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No kidding. what about law these first few years, Laurie? Did you enjoy the most? Was it the deposition or was it just building the case? Like what really sort of give it gave you that drive?

Depositions are kind of a big deal and in a big firm you're gonna sit there and take notes and not do anything. And at this firm, there were some smaller cases and I had a boss who was a horrible boss, but he was pretty good at delegating. So I got to get my feet wet and actually learn how to practice law and I loved it. It was fun. And I loved going into a depot and being misjudged only once.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because they would look at me and think, there's a little girl, we can run the railroad over her and then I would rise up into my New York not so fast guys and they go, Holy shit, I guess we're not messing with her.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you did you ever have to conceal your your New York accent? 'Cause it's very distinct. like when you were, you know, doing depositions and stuff like that, was it or was that just like they knew that the full lorry was coming out when that accent came out?

I don't know, I didn't do anything intentionally, you know. I I joke that I already I was already trained to be a litigator 'cause I grew up in New York City. You have to scar there or you're not surviving. So I could pull out that act. And that was a thing. To me, a deposition where you're kind of going to war or anything with opposing counsel. I was good at being the attack dog. In fact I got the nickname Tiger in my law firm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

wow. How'd you get that nickname?

And I don't know, it just they started calling me that. And but when it was over, I I could just lose the act. So that didn't stress me. I didn't stay in that mode like I was still at work. I didn't. But the stress mode was everything else about it, you know, developing business, making sure everybody was happy with you, you know, making sure you didn't mess things up, all those kinds of things. Very stressful, and I made an intentional decision to just give my life to it, basically. There's no other way to describe it. I was not even attempting work-life balance. I thought that was ridiculous. I worked, I worked and I worked. I did get married. I was married for seven miserable years to husband number one, but neither of us made any compromises.

We won't make it. Yeah. Yeah. I could see I could see that happening, especially when you're you're in that work mode all the time and that's your passion.

Yes, and guess what his job was? He worked for the Department of Labor, easiest job on the planet. He got off at three o'clock, he'd go home, he'd ride his bike for two hours. An entirely different life than I had.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I it's it's funny to me, you know, when I was at the Pentagon, around three o'clock, the whole building would seemingly be empty. And I'm like, Don't people work after three? Like this is sort of I don't know. Scurried away. but we won't mention that.

Yeah, where'd they go?

Yeah. And the other thing I did because I was so career driven, this was my attitude. I'm gonna make partner. This is this is my goal. And it was really hard, long fought, but I was not giving up on this goal. And I decided I'm not having any kids. I didn't really have a big calling to that. And I just decided I don't wanna be guilty at home and at work. I don't want to have a baby and farm it out to daycare. That's really stupid.

Yeah.

Yep.

And I intentionally early on made that decision. I'm not having children because I knew it would make it much harder to make partner. And the only other woman partner at the firm who, by the way, didn't make any effort to support me, but we won't go there. she had a kid. And so she took time off and she struggled and tried to balance the two. And I thought I don't need that.

Yeah.

Mm.

Additional thing. I'm gonna have enough trouble making partner, and that's my goal. And I was just very clear-headed. The problem was I had no idea how to make partner, and I had no allies and no real mentor. So I was on my own guessing, and I guessed wrong most of the time. My idea was it's a defense firm.

Yeah.

Laurie, tell me

The more hours I bill, the more money they make. That's gotta be the tickets. I just worked my butt off and I was, you know, the billing champion almost every year. But I still wasn't making partner. I'm like, what the hell?

Yeah. That's wild. Laurie, tell me you know, when you moved back to California from Chicago and you had this desire to make partner, what about that status appeal to you? especially knowing that you're committing, you know, not just like your your your work life and the hours, but you know, you've set aside and you purposely didn't want to have kids because that is your main goal. Tell me a little bit about what what about being partner was was so fascinating to you that you committed a hundred and twenty percent to to that goal.

That's a really good question. And in retrospect, I realized that everything I did in my legal career was about proving to me that I could do it. It was a challenge that I was up for. And I I don't know. I do remember also when I was still in college I did this really big survey of women lawyers. And I mean it was very prehistoric. I was, you know, looking stu

Yeah.

licking envelopes and sending out I'm developed this lengthy questionnaire about whether they felt they were discriminated against and all this and did a big big paper on it. And so that was something of interest to me. I don't know. It was just a challenge that I wanted to take on and prove to myself really that I could make it. I don't know why. I'm a driven person and I don't let

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

go of things when I decide this is what I want to do. And I wanted to prove I'm as smart as you guys are and I can be a partner too. And I knew it would be a challenge. I knew there would be discrimination, overt or subtle. And I chose not to get pissed off about that. I took it as the lay of the land. You know, you can't be looking around, my God, he looked at me crooked. I'm going to go file a complaint. You know, I took it as

Yeah.

I know it's gonna be harder, but I'm gonna find a way in. That's all. And even after the bizarre journey that I took to get in, I wasn't bitter and angry. I thought, shit, I won. That was my only role. It wasn't to, you know, change over guys who were born, you know, thirty years before I was and had an idea that women shouldn't be partners in law firms, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I've never worked in a law firm, clearly, but when you were when you moved back to California and and and and you started to work at whatever the name of this law firm is, explain to me or tell me what that environment's like. Like what what sort of happens on a day to day basis? What are the dynamics

it was a fairly collegial place, but I didn't have a lot of friends and buddies. it was very, very male oriented and I I kind of felt like I was alone or on my own.

Yeah.

Many what was the percentage?

Yeah. How many percent what what's the percentage of of of men typically that were there when you were when you were working?

Well, are you talking associates or partners? Because partners, when I first got there, there were zero women partners. Then one made it like two years before I did. So I was number two. So we'd have partner meetings. It was all the guys and us two. That was it. And retreats and stuff. It was weird. There were associates, I don't know, it wasn't fifty fifty, it was less than that. But they were coming in, but they were leaving too.

Mm, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And I still, you know, the longer I practice, I saw a huge drop off with women lawyers, way more so than male lawyers. And a lot of it was not discrimination, reality. You know, I was running a branch office at the end of my career, and so I was doing hiring and stuff. And these women would come in and they would have this idea that this was just a cool job.

Right.

And they didn't understand it's grunt work, it's it's long hours, it's hard. The men seem to have a better understanding of, you know, you're an adult, you work. You don't expect to love your work, you expect to earn a living and support your family. And these women would come in and you know, they'd go, you want me to work on the weekend? I got plans.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

First time somebody said that to me, I was blown away. We were working on some brief. It was due on Monday, and I said, So what time are you coming in tomorrow, meaning Saturday? And she was shocked. She was shocked. And I was shocked that she was shocked. I mean, I just I'm like, What? You didn't think you were coming in? Are you kidding me? You've made plans for the weekend? You don't get plans. What are you talking about?

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Ha ha.

Yeah. Did she come in?

Did she eventually show up that Saturday?

No. I had to do it on my own. I was not happy. But the atmosphere was, it seemed pretty collegial. I just felt like I was kind of on the outs, but you know, I felt that way at the all girls Catholic high school too. I was never I was never been a big joiner clicky kind of person, so I wasn't all that distraught about it. I was only upset when I couldn't figure out how to get into the partnership.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

That that disturbed me 'cause it was a mystery to me for like four years while they passed me over continually with no good explanation. But finally I got one and that led to me getting in. I I solved the puzzle. It was bizarre.

Yeah, tell me tell me that story of of of going from an associate to a partner. This spans multiple years. and I'm sure there was a lot of things there. You opened up our conversation by saying you wanted to be a partner, but you didn't initially know how to get there. You eventually did. Tell me the story of how you eventually made that goal.

Well, I did start to get aligned with some of the partners who had more power in the firm, but still that wasn't the ticket. Every year I get passed over and finally one year I said, you know, what is the deficit here? What do you need me to improve so I could make a partner? It's amorphous. It's amorphous. You don't know.

Yeah, what the requirements for being a partner? I I don't even know. Mm. Okay.

so they said to me, Well, your oral skills need improvement. And I went, Okay. I had no idea what they were talking about. Not one of these partners had ever been to court with me, so I don't know how they would know about my oral skills. But I thought, okay, if that's a ticket, that's a ticket. So here's what I did. We had yellow pages in those days. So I go to this yellow page and I look up speech pathologists. I swear to God.

Wow.

And I saw one, it was the name of a woman, and I called her up. And I said, My law firm is telling me I have some kind of speech deficit. Can you help me? And she said, Absolutely. And I met with her and I liked her and she asked me what was going on. And I told her. And the partners were going to hire her and pay for three sessions. But they needed to take her to lunch first to make sure that she measured up, you know.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So they took her to lunch to measure her up and she measured them up and she figured out what the problem was and she came and told me.

What was it?

I needed a makeover.

What?

I needed a makeover.

Tell me more about this. Like what like I don't even understand what that like what that means. Tell me a little bit.

You know those shows where they make over the women and they first they look like nothing and then they look like a movie star? Some version of that. Yeah, yeah. So here was the deal. I I have never been into my looks. I've always been a head person. It I didn't really pay attention. I looked good enough apparently. I did not wear makeup. I did not pierce my ears. I did not, you know, spend a hundred dollars.

Yeah, like queer eye for the straight guy, right? Like that type. Okay.

For a fancy haircut. I wore a skirt and a jacket, which I thought looked professional. And that was how I looked at work. And apparently, on some level, probably subliminally, that was not the image these men had of what a girl partner should look like, you see. So

Yeah.

I I'm talking to a speech pathologist and I said, What's wrong with the way I dress? And she says to me, You look like a volleyball player.

Like a beach volleyball player or like an indoor volleyball player?

How I dressed, but she said you look like a volleyball player. And I went, okay, that's the wrong field to be in. So what should I do? And here's what I did. I had someone do my colors, I swear to God. The stupidest thing ever. You know, what looks good with your complexion? I don't know. I thought it was hocus pocus bullshit, but I did it. So we came up with colors.

Yeah.

Then a woman comes over to my house and tells me half of the shit I have has to go to the goodwill. I'm never wearing it again. Then she proceeds to take me to some fancy boutique in a San Francisco alley where I buy super expensive clothing, which by the way is very easy to get used to, it turns out. but, you know, like ridiculously expensive. But it looked really nice, you know.

Mm.

yeah.

Yeah.

So I did that. Then I went to some she she haircutting place where they gave me a new do. Then I went to some makeup place where they literally instructed me and gave me like a kid's coloring thing you get in a in a a restaurant or something with a face about how to put the shit on me, where to buy all the crap. I I still hate makeup. I wear a little now just so I don't scare people 'cause I'm old.

Yeah.

But I think it's the stupidest thing ever. It's face paint. Men don't have to do it. It's ridiculous. So I had to learn how to do that. I had a short hairdo and I had multiple products I had to learn how to use after I bought them. So it was like a big chore. Then I went and I got my ears pierced, and then I had to go buy earrings. what else did I do? I think that was about it. So these things just started rolling out, you know, kind of on a rolling basis. And

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No man ever said anything that about you look differently now. However, I did kind of feel eyes on my butt when I was walking away, just saying. They noticed. But nobody ever said anything. And then magically, despite my speech still sounding the way it does now, which I would call more a male speech pattern than female, I was in.

Wow. They noticed.

Mm-hmm. That's wild.

It is wild and you know some of my friends who had left the firm, you're compromising. How can you do this? I said, I'm trying to get to my goal. This isn't anything I care about at all. I'm willing to change the window dressing. Who cares?

Yeah. I have so many questions, Laurie. First question I have. So you you find this speech pathologist. What does a speech what should a speech pathologist do for you?

Weird, huh?

Yes.

Well, the the scuttle butt was I spoke in a monotone and it sounded very male and my voice did not modulate sufficiently. Yeah, and she did make me she did have a lot of sessions with me where I pretended to be a Shakespeare character or something and it didn't work at all. I know.

Mm, so that's what they were supposed to help you with is

God. That sounds horrible.

It was horrible. It was stupid and it was a waste of time, but she made me partner. So I didn't care. And I paid for a bunch of other sessions just kind of for the moral support and for the career, you know, makeover guidance.

Right. Right. I'm I'm just

It was all pretty weird. And I just I, you know, in retrospect, I thought, why the hell didn't you guys just tell me this four years earlier? I would have done it. But I don't think it was a conscious thing. I really don't. I think they just had some image that was in their head of, you know, this is a representative of their law firm. This is a big deal to them for somebody to be a partner. And for a woman, they don't know what they want.

Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And women are very different one from another, especially in dress and things like that. And they didn't know what they wanted. They knew I was a tough guy. That part I had, you know, I wasn't gonna be in the bathroom crying because somebody was mean to me. I had that part fine. But they didn't like the way I looked. I didn't look appropriately something. And they couldn't articulate it, I don't think. So pretty weird, huh?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Did I mean it's it's very strange to me and for for many reasons, but like how does a speech pathologist end up giving you a recommendation after talking to to the partners in the law firm of a makeover?

She was smart, she was smart as hell, and I got lucky as hell. Any other one I would have picked, it never would have happened. She just thought there's something else going on here and she figured it out. I couldn't believe it. I said, Are you kidding me? When she first said it, I said, Are you kidding me? And then she made that volleyball statement. I said, I hate you too, you know?

Yeah. Was was part of

Yeah. I mean like what I I guess after that meeting that she had with with the the law firm and eventually giving you this recommendation, there must have been stuff that was either alluded to or hints for her to make that connection. Or did she just see you and was like, Well, you look like a volleyball player?

I don't know. She she went to lunch with a couple partners. I wasn't there and by the time she came back she had decided she knew what the problem was and she turned out to be right.

Yeah, that's wild. That is wild. Well, you know, Lori, after you go through this big makeover, and I'm assuming it's probably over a series of weeks, maybe months or whatever that may be.

I told you it was weird.

In month. Yeah, it rolled out. It was a rolling makeover. It wasn't on a T V show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I totally understand that. Totally understand that. what what kind of impact did this make on you, if if any at all, like as you start to put on makeup and do all these things? Cause I know like whenever I get recommendations, I'm better about them now where somebody's like, Hey Savan, you maybe talk too much or maybe you talk too fast. And there's like, you know, those critiques after a while, they sort of build on on top of each other. but you got this like massive thing where they're like you gotta do all these things with your hair and your face and your clothes.

Yeah, but see, it didn't affect me on any personal level. I took it as stupid window dressing. The only thing I resented about it was it was expensive, but like I say, you can get used to expensive things, so it wasn't horrible. But it just was a time consuming, stupid thing I had to do. You know, I need an extra half hour to look presentable to leave my apartment, which I thought was ludicrous, but I just went, Okay, if that's all it takes, big deal. I don't care.

Yeah.

Right. Right. Right. Okay, so we're now at this point where you you had the makeover. how long were you in this sort of like new makeover phase before they eventually made you partner? What was that time span?

I don't remember it was less than a year though.

Interesting. Interesting. Huh.

And no explanation. I was just in all of a sudden. So I thought don't ask questions.

Yeah, that's gotta be that's gotta be surreal. I mean, tell me about the fur like when you they announced that you made partner, what was that day like?

Nothing special. I don't even remember how they told me. They announ it's typically something they announce at the end of the year when they distribute the money and all that sort of thing and everyone eventually figures out who may partner.

Yeah.

Do you feel that though was sort of a letdown considering you've had this goal for your entire life up to that point, or did you feel like it hit it, like the mark?

No. I felt like, God damn it, I got in. I am very proud of myself. No, I was thrilled. I didn't need a big announcement because as I said, I was proving it to myself, is what I think was going on more than anything else. I wanted to prove I could get in. I thought it was a huge challenge and I conquered it and I was damn proud of myself. I liked being a partner. I liked the fact that I had achieved the goal.

Right. Right.

Right. What was what was that first year like as as a partner? tell me about sort of some of the the new challenges that really?

it was more work than ever actually. Because then you have more supervisory duties and administrative duties. So it wasn't like your workload decreased and more pressure to bring in clients and stuff. It was harder than ever. Really. And then I decided I was gonna open a branch office. I decided I had I hadn't had enough challenges yet. So what would what well because what was going on was

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean why why?

They had a couple big clients who they had a contract with to do all of a certain type of business litigation. And more of the business was located in Southern California than Northern California, which is pretty normal. There's a lot more industry down here than in San Francisco. So I was the person who was hopping on Southwest, you know, multiple times a week, going up and back, up and back, you know, camping out at some executive suite in downtown LA.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And I thought, we're not making any money doing this stuff this way. And it doesn't make any sense. Why don't we just open a branch office down there? And they said to me, Well, we tried that once and it failed miserably. But if you would like to do it, go right ahead. And I went, watch me.

Right.

Mm, mm-hmm.

And somehow I thought I could do it. How? I don't know. I never had one business course. I had no idea how to put together a team of people. I had never run anything remotely like this. I just decided if I again I'm back to if I work my ass off, I'll figure it out.

Yeah. What was what was that that like? Did you have allies that supported you on on on this work or was that more did you feel like it was a solo adventure?

And I'm dead.

Well, when it was started, the notion was that partners would rotate down there, that I would stay for a while and then somebody else would come down. That was the notion. And I had a long conversation with my then husband about it. And I said, Look, I'm gonna be in Southern California quite a bit of time. And I need to know that you're okay with this, 'cause it's gonna be you know a big change for you and

okay.

Yeah.

You know, the firm was paying for an apartment. They would pay for me if I wanted to go up and back. There was no I wasn't taking an economic hit on this. And I said, you know, I don't know how much of my time I'm gonna have to spend down there. I'm gonna see how it goes. I'm gonna assume, you know, maybe it turns out to be half and half. We're just gonna have to see. But, you know, every weekend we'll switch. You know, you'll come down, I'll go up, that kind of thing. He said, That's a great opportunity. You should take it.

That's not what he said later. but what I quickly learned was no other partner wanted to come down, and I had to be there all the time to make it work.

Did you enjoy Southern California more than northern?

the weather's a hell of a lot better. I did. And I got I lost my horrible commute from Marin County way down to downtown San Francisco, which was horrible. When I was looking for a house, I said to the realtor, Don't show me anything that requires me to go on a freeway to get to the office. I'm done with that.

Yeah. Yeah. It definitely

Uhhuh. Yeah. God I couldn't bet.

And when I would when I was choosing a location, the partners didn't know anything about Southern California. To them, it's like a a vast wasteland and LA is LA and that's everything. And I said, I'm not getting an office in downtown LA. I'm gonna get one in Orange County. They went, Orange County, what the hell is that? I said, you know, it's like Disneyland. I don't know. So the first office that we ended up with.

yeah.

Yeah.

had a Newport Beach address. It was nowhere near the water, but it's a Newport Beach address, so they thought we were hanging out in the surf all day.

Yeah.

god that's hilarious. That is freaking hilarious. Lori tell me a

So I interviewed the first associate at the Orange County Airport. Yeah, because we didn't have an office space yet. They did the office manager from San Francisco did help me a lot in terms of getting everything set up and all that. I I got a paralegal, I hired a bunch of people down here and just developed it and I I don't know how I did it. I don't know

John Wayne?

Where I got the idea I could do this, I just started doing it. And it also gave me an easy out for the marriage.

Yeah, I mean that's gotta be so wild just trying to figure out how you balance being partner all of a sudden, taking on this new adventure of opening up another branch and then trying to figure out how to make a marriage work. Like at some point s those things conflict with each other and and I think like in many ways, you know, trying to juggle these things is incredibly difficult for for Anybody, let alone somebody who's in a marriage, like tell me a little bit about some of the things that you were trying to reconcile with as you were, you know, trying to open up this branch. Like what was the biggest priority in your head and in in your mind during this time of this is the most important thing for me and nothing else is more important? Yeah.

Get the branch up and running. And here's an irony. One of the older partners who I didn't know very well, when we were talking about establishing this branch office, he says to me, I think you're gonna lose your marriage. And I went, I didn't knew nothing about my marriage. And I said, What are you talking about? Where would you get that idea? it turned out he was right. So here's what happened. my husband came down once.

shit.

Then he refused to ever come down again and said as long as his mother was alive, there's no way he'd ever be moving down there and he didn't want to come down anymore. And I went, Okay then, bye bye.

What?

Yep. And that that was the basic problem with the marriage right there. His mother was still coming first. He had no right to get married, really. So he was totally inflexible, even though in the beginning he told me he was flexible and encouraged me. Then when it actually happened, he turned out to be, you know, like not willing to do anything. And meanwhile, I knew I was gonna spend almost all my time down here. So that wasn't gonna work.

Isn't he the one who said, Hey, that's a

Yeah.

Mm.

So, you know, we'd already been through about six of the seven years we were in marriage counseling. What a success. Yeah. So I decided, you know, and a lot of that was I didn't want to admit I was a failure and I had chosen poorly.

That's expensive. Six years of marriage counseling?

Because that's my MO. I will find a way to make it work. And I thought, you know, I waited till I was thirty six to get married. God damn it, you can get this right. And you can, you know, it needs a couple tweaks, you can tweak it. And so I tried it very diligently. And it just didn't work. I mean, I should have known because I took out, you know, I did an Excel spreadsheet to decide whether to marry the guy.

What did well okay, so explain to me, what does this spreadsheet have on it? What were the columns? Like, what did you track?

It was like, you know, the things I like about him and the things I hate about him. Where's the balance? Because my notion of a marriage was you're always going to be making a compromise. There's no perfect person out there. So, you know, do the deficit if the deficits are outweighing the benefits, you say no. Otherwise you say yes, because it's going to be good enough. But you know, in retrospect the answer is always if you need to pull out that spreadsheet, you know the answer, Laurie, and it is hell no.

Yeah. All right. That's crazy.

That was a pretty funny start, but it it was a no go. He was very inflexible and it was everything was about his mother. She was gonna come first no matter what. And you know, you can't have a marriage when mom is coming first, and she was. And he said until she dies. I went, Okay then, it's not gonna work. Yeah, and it was.

No, absolutely.

Could be a lot.

Wow. Okay. Well let's

But in retrospect, it was an easy transition 'cause basically I had already relocated. And then we started fighting over household goods and he was fighting over things in the kitchen that he had no idea what they even did. You know, what what this thing was for, but he was fighting over it. So eventually I just decided I'm gonna buy a furnished model. So I let him keep all the furniture and he never knew why.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I mean that's good thinking on your part.

Yeah. It's a nice coincidence. It was just an easy way to solve the problem and y you know, he thought I was being magnanimous, I suppose. I don't know.

Yeah. That's wild. Lori, tell me about tell me about sort of the last few months, when you decide to finally leave Law for Good. Like what what went into that decision?

Yeah.

two two things coalesce. One was I sort of felt like I had proved everything to myself I wanted to prove with a career. And sort of felt like, you know, I'm not jumping up and down to go to the office anymore. And people are annoying me more. The things I don't like about it are getting to me more. Do I really want to take another deposition? Not really. Do I really want to, you know, drive to downtown LA at the crack of dawn for a two-minute court appearance? Not really. so there was that feeling and just the overall stress. And, you know, like why am why am I gonna keep doing this if I don't love it? Because there are no do-overs in life. And a big driver was my current husband. I had gotten remarried and this was not an Excel spreadsheet thing. It was like

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

immediate I knew, which was like the shockingest thing in the world to me, because I did not believe in that. But it happened. I knew. I we met in the gym and our first time when we actually spoke after two years because he couldn't get up the guts to talk to me because I appeared to be so mean.

Mm.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah, we rode the stairmaster side by side for half an hour. When I got off I knew I wanted to marry the guy. I knew I like nothing about him. The paralegal in my office was running a criminal background on him to make sure.

Wow, what did he say?

yeah.

man. what t okay, I I gotta ask you, like th th this this stairmaster experience s I mean, how did that even go down? Was it just like, hey, how're you doing? How many miles you're doing? And then by the end of it you're like, I'm gonna marry this guy? Like how the hell did that happen?

No, what happened was a couple times during the course of the two years we were both in the health club together, he made attempts to talk to me. So do you do you play tennis? No. End of conversation. So do you know where to ski around here? No. End of conversation. He was there, I had seen him. You know, I wasn't that interested. And then he sent an emissary who was in my locker room.

Mm-hmm.

A woman I belong we were in the executive locker room, so she happened to be in the same one and I this was one of the women that I saw him talking with, you know, a lot. And so she comes, she was, you know, like hair on fire kind of person. She'd come in in a whirlwind and my God and she'd run out and so she comes running in one day and says, Lori, there's some guy who's interested in in you. Do you want me to give him your email?

Mm-hmm.

And I said, Well, who is he? She gives me a name. She gives me a name, and the name means nothing. I don't know any name. And she says, well, he still has all his hair. And and I think he makes a good living. And I went, that's really helpful. That tells me what you think is important in life. So that's what she said.

Yeah. Yeah, I was just random person.

Okay. Yeah, it's like what

Okay.

And then I put sort of put two and two together because I remember seeing him around her and her two friends, and I thought it must be that guy. So I have the worst handwriting in the world, and all we have was a napkin. I scribbled my email address and I thought, 50-50, he'll ever be able to read this and and connect with me. I'm probably pretty safe. Well, he he figured it out.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So we had a bunch of back and forth it was email at the time and try to make several attempts to have coffee together and I don't know, it just wasn't working. I was about to give up on and then the last time I tried to make one, he said, the first thing that happened was he found out we had a commonality that he would like to exploit. Which was we both went to Penn State and he thought, I got her now. The only problem was he loved it and I hated it. That didn't really pan out.

Okay.

The irony. the irony. That is so hilarious. man.

Yeah, you never know. So it was a Saturday morning. He had already told me he was going to the game at Penn State, and I I remember hearing there was gonna be some really bad weather. And so I see him sitting on one of the wait machines and I walk up to him and I say, I see you have a modicum of good sense. Nice, nice friendly opening line, huh?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Will you marry me?

And from that, you know, we ended up doing our cardio together and then I knew and then we went out to dinner and I just knew. It was bizarre. So anyway, I had gotten married, it was a couple months in. We go for a walk every evening, and every evening he'd say, Lori, why do you keep working? How much more money do you need? How much more money? Give me a figure every night. He doesn't he denies it now, but he's badgering me about this. And I started to think about and I thought

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

You know, he's right. I save my pennies. It's not about the money anymore. It's about what the hell else would I do with my life. But I realized that I am not the kind of person who can go home and go, Time out, roll number two, loving life, and flip into it. And I knew that for sure because he would say to me, I am not your secretary. When I would talk to him, I'd think, Okay, I guess I'm still being a bossy jerk. I don't know how to get out of that.

Right.

Yeah.

And I just thought knowing who I am, it's not gonna happen. So I need to get out of the career. So eventually, you know, it was just enough stacking up that I decided I'm done. I want to close that door. And I'll find something else to do. And twenty-three years is plenty. I'm gonna live and work a long time. I'm I'm gonna work until I drop dead, as long as I'm capable. And I need something else to do that isn't quite so high stress and just something different.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And I had no idea what it was, but I just knew I was gonna do something different.

Yeah, I you know, for people that I feel like you and me in some ways, you know, whenever somebody says, Hey, like you should go get a hobby or you should go and do something, it's never a thirty percent commitment type of thing. Like if I you know, even if I'm not working, I'm and I pick up something, it's like a hundred and twenty percent. Like it's always stressful. It always gets to that point where you're like, Fuck, like why did I pick this up? Like why did I do this?

Yeah.

No.

Exactly. So what do I do? I open my own business. You think that's not stressful and I'm the world's nastiest boss?

Yeah, yeah. What so what did you open? Like what tell me tell me about that story. So you left the law firm, you left legal

That's what happened.

I left the law firm, I'm playing golf and it's ridiculous. And I'm trying to decide, you know, what to do. I'm trying to think of, you know, which fields, you know, are going to yield a lot of employment in the future. and meanwhile I was having a personal experience with my dad. He was getting, you know, some version of dementia.

Yeah.

He was living in New York, so I was finding him a place to live in California, and I immediately figured out that navigating elder care in the United States is just a nightmare. It's a very fractured system. It's very hard to figure out. And I thought, there you go. I'm going back to school. I love learning. I love being a student. So I went back to school. I was not going to a campus and I found Coastline Community College. You could do the

Yeah.

certification program all online. I thought perfect. So I start going to school and you know that's not enough for me to do. And so what I decide to do is well if I'm interested in the field, why don't I start volunteering? I can figure out what kind of opportunities are out there. I can meet some people. So I go to Council on Aging Orange County and they have something called an ombudsman program, which are very dedicated volunteers who go into skilled nursing and board and care facilities and they basically act as you know inspectors for the state the backup and if you find violations you report them to the state the state actually comes in and you know makes them change I thought this is kind of cool. I sort of get to use my legal background so as volunteer they would assign me a certain number of places to go on a regular basis and inspect.

Uh-huh.

Then eventually they figured out I had a brain. They started creating jobs for me there. And I started doing different things. And I ended up figuring out that I love to create curriculum. I redid their whole training program. I added skits and fun stuff and lunch. What a concept. And then, you know, they're always looking for money. They're basically grant-funded government grants. And

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

So they they wanted to start a continuing education program for people who work in the facilities who need, you know, CEUs. you know, the people who manage it, they they have to have CEUs to keep their license current, you know, their license. So I started creating and teaching programs and getting the people in and charging them some money, and I found, man, I like this. Public speaking.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

give me the mic. I'm not giving it up. And I was shocked by this because I never liked to go to court. But what I realized in retrospect, well, that was because in the court, the judge is in charge. In this room, I'm in charge. And so I'd go up and I'd get with my people and I'd, you know, start making them laugh and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I really liked it. The first one I

Yeah.

Right.

Created had to do with sex in elder care facilities. I thought that'll get in the door. It did. I thought, why not?

Yeah. Why not? Holy shit. so so Lori said

Yeah. So I was I was kind of, you know, figuring out that I had other skills and talents and one of my biggest fears when I had retired was that, you know, I had a couple good skills and talents and they just happened to fit into the legal box to make me an excellent lawyer, but I had none no others that would be applicable to any other job. I was petrified about that.

Yeah.

So I was just kinda, you know, meandering around, finding things I seemed to be capable of doing and sort of it was a very fun, you know, just journey and transformation. And I took a whole different attitude. I wasn't beating down the door this time. If I started to go in one direction and I didn't get a good reception, I go, okay, I'll go, I'll pivot, I'll go somewhere else. It wasn't like law where it's beating down the door because I didn't even know where I was going.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I did a bunch of public speaking all over the country. I found out I can actually be a pretty decent creative writing writer, so I found ways to get paid for doing that stuff. and I started teaching at Coastline College, oddly enough. I wasn't looking for a teaching job. I never thought I wanted to teach, but we had some kind of a practicum as part of getting the certification and I ended up going to this teacher's house.

Yeah.

And we're kind of going through what could I do with his career and all that. And she said, I think you should teach. And I said, Teach? I don't want to teach. and then there came an opening that I was invited to take advantage of. They had some kind of elder care, older adult curriculum. So it was free, free to the elders, but you had to drum up your own

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

audience. You had to get the people in the room. And I wasn't on s I was only on staff to help with that program at the time. And so I created curriculum and all that. And eventually I weaned my way in and an opening came in the department to actually teach the regular courses. So I've been doing that for twenty years.

okay.

Wow.

So I was teaching initially aging studies, which is what I had studied. And then I don't know, ten years ago we got a dean who was all into health and wellness. So he let me create a couple health and wellness courses. So I've been teaching them for quite some time now. And I created those, and that's my wheelhouse. So I just love that. And it's all online. So that's kind of an adjunct job I have, you know. So that's been fun. I never expected to go there at all.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah you've got

And you never know.

I mean it's funny where life takes you, especially with some of these decisions that you don't plan for. Your your your your I would call your your your new act after sort of the first act of the legal profession has been or it reads to be very much like serendipitous types of things. Like you didn't expect to be a teacher, but you were. You didn't expect to sort of like do all the stuff in wellness, but you are.

yeah.

Right.

What part of sort of this phase of your life right now excites you the most? What what part gives you the most amount of joy?

coaching people with their health and I found it accidentally online doing a Google search.

What did you search for?

Well, my husband and I had started to get quite health conscious after I retired. and we're always talking about, you know, why are we motivated to take care of ourselves, to exercise, and try to pay attention to eating healthy? And clearly most people are not. And next step, how do you motivate those people? Because this is a sad state of affairs. We got all these people dealing with obesity and getting illnesses.

Yeah.

For sure.

So I'm looking online to solve the problem and I found this field called wellness coaching, which I had no idea existed. And I went, that's it. That's it. And I realized it's some kind of almost like counseling, almost like being a shrink without a license, which I jokingly refer to myself as, as you're probably not surprised, unlicensed shrink, I sometimes call myself.

Yeah, for

I didn't either.

And I thought, you know, I apparently I have that skill because I was always the girl in high school. They'd come to for advice, ask my advice, ignore it, and ask my advice again. So I thought I must have some ability to do this. I'm personable. I like to talk to people. And so then I went and got, you know, I have at least 15 certifications.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Just trying to educate myself so I knew what I was doing. But I love the one-on-one coaching of anyone who's willing to work on their health, because to me that's like my religion. And I think health is a true pandemic. I don't think COVID was anything. Health is a true pandemic. It really is. And it's the most important thing in life. And I really believe that. And if I can help someone who's willing to change their health habits, boy, I feel

yeah. Yeah, for sure.

I feel like I made good use of my time. So I love doing this. I've tried groups and stuff. I really like the one-on-one. I really like it. And originally it was more weight loss driven, but then the GLP ones, the weight loss injectables came in and blew that market away. So now it's more focused on metabolic health, which in I realized I had always kind of been doing before, but now I

Yeah.

Yeah.

talk much more about other lifestyle behaviors like stress and sleep and social connections and how they impact everything about your weight and that you know just f focusing on losing the weight or getting in an exercise regimen is not the big picture here. It's everything about your life and your lifestyle. And I've had a lot of people came to me and I'd say in the first session, I think you need to quit your job.

Yeah.

It's the only way you're ever gonna be healthy. And they're like, No, no, no, I can't, I can't, I can't and then like four sessions later saying, Tell me about your career transition, Laurie.

Yeah, I want to ask about that. So, you know, one of the things that happens when somebody loses a job or they get fired or whatever it may be, there's this shift in in how they manage their time, how they perceive you know the important things in life in terms of how to have that balance because all of a sudden you don't have this structure of work anymore to tell you what to do and tell you when to. Eat. you know, what's your recommendation for people that are currently in that state where they feel like overwhelmed and they're stressed out? Like what would be the first thing if I was a client of yours and I came in to see you and I said, Hey Laura, I just lost my job, I'm super stressed out, I can't eat, I can't sleep, I can't do all these things. What would be one of the first things you would tell somebody?

It's exactly what you said. Create some structure for yourself. Don't wake up with nothing to do and waste the day surfing the internet. Create structure. Make appointments somehow. You know, fit in your exercise. Decide one thing you're gonna do that's gonna help you find your next career. But you gotta have the structure is everything. We like structure and predictability, otherwise we just feel like we're drifting and we're going nowhere.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And a lot of it is just about you got to set some goals for yourself. You got to make some appointments. You got to meet some people. You got to figure out, you know, a strategy. And if that one doesn't work, you pivot to another one. The other thing that I thought was interesting that people who change careers deal with is sort of societal attitude about what you do for a living.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Now, as a lawyer, they make fun of us and they have these nasty jokes and all that. But still, people are impressed when you say you were a lawyer. Way more impressed than they should be, in my opinion, but they are. And when you say you're a wellness coach, they think you're nothing. You know what? I don't care. I really don't care. But that is a head thing for a lot of people. You know, I was moved way down and even at Council on Aging, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Yep.

I was much older than most of the people, and I'd have a 20-year-old who had been there who knew something telling me what to do. I didn't take offense. I'm like, please help me. But that is a head thing that for some people can be a big deal. I was never I never got the egomaniac part of being a lawyer. I just thought it was, you know, I I'm there to solve somebody's problem. How do you want me to solve it? You want a trial, you want a settlement?

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

What would you like the outcome to be? I was never in love with, my God, a new case is coming out. I gotta read this. To me, it was problem solving. And I think a lot of these careers, the biggest thing you need to know is the lingo. If you know the lingo, you're in. A lot of it is that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. 'Cause you can communicate it. Yeah. Yeah.

But so, you know, a lot of people, you know, they take a peg down and it can feel terrible. And you know, I don't care what people think of me. And, you know, if I think they think I'm a nothing, you know, sometimes I will pull out the lawyer thing, then they'll go, okay, you do have a blind. Yeah, and by the way, there's my law degree behind you. really? You were a lawyer? Yeah, I was. my God, how'd you make the transition? That's the next question.

Yeah.

Yeah. Lori, I want to spend maybe the last ten minutes of our of our podcast recording talking about reflections and talking about you know, as you go into this next series of adventures, whether it's writing books or wellness or client sessions. the first reflection that I have as I'm taking all these notes is this very interesting almost dichotomy of Who you are now versus who you are before. You wrote in a blog post called Stress Eating that you need to start supporting your biology, not fighting it, right? That, you know, there are many times where we tell people, or you have this idea that you have to work harder and keep grinding and do all these things to a point where your body, your brain, gets to a deficit and you get sick, or you can't do you know, typical things. But as I listened to your story, Lori, while you were going through law school and then eventually, you know, throughout your your lear your years as a partner, you're it sounded like you were doing the opposite of what you should be doing, what you're telling people.

absolutely. Go, go, go, go, go, and go some more. I was not sleeping well because I wake up in the middle of the night with a brain racing around. Tylenol PM was my new best friend. I was very stressed all the time. I couldn't relax. I didn't know how. And I was brought up with a Jewish upbringing, even though they told me I was a German Catholic. And

Yeah, yeah. I mean

Yep.

yeah. Yeah.

You know, it was all about achieve, achieve. What are you achieving on vacation? That would be nothing. I didn't know how to take time off. I had no idea. And I was just racing through life.

Yeah.

How do you how do you make the, I wouldn't even say argument, but how do you communicate to people that are in the situation that you were in when you were in your 20s, 30s, 40s, you were trying to really hit these big lofty goals? How do you communicate to them that those goals are great, but wellness and making sure you're doing the things that are gonna give you that longevity? Is more important in some ways.

Go to the deathbed analogy. I go to you're on your deathbed, is what you're going to say, gee, I wish I had built another hour at my law firm. Or is it going to be, gee, I wish I had spent more time with my kids? I spend a lot of time with clients talking about you gotta pay attention to your children. They remember, if you're distracted, they know you're distracted, you know, what really matters in life.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And yeah, you need to earn a living, but it can't be everything, and you gotta find a way to balance. And if you need help, you get help one way or another. Don't try to do everything on your own. And the other thing I say is, you know what, you deserve a happy life right now. You do. Go get it. This is you're not happy, you figure out how to get happy because you don't get a do over on this stuff. Every day you waste being stressed and running around like a crazy person. That's

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

It's day you lost, you know. You need a bigger perspective. And a lot of it is, you know, is I coach a lot of men because they can relate to me, and you know, they're not paying attention to their kids, and I call them out on it. And I say, You got to. You you just do, you gotta make time, it matters, and you gotta be not distracted. And you gotta really take time. If you're gonna be in a stress job, I get it, that's okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

even though it's not what your body's designed to do, but you have to intentionally find ways to de stress. And this is a big trend right now. You even see it in health clubs. They're all creating a different room that has all kinds of ways to de stress, you know, a sound bath.

Yeah, I mean I feel like I feel like we stole that from the Koreans, right? Like those bots. Yeah.

Yeah, we did. We did. We created a Korean spa, but that's become much a much bigger deal now. Rejuvenating, just not go, go, go. Cause your body and your brain are not designed to do that. And I tell people, you know, take five minutes, go outside and walk around. You're gonna have a much better attitude when you come home when you come back. And it's five minutes. I call it an extra snack. Just sneak out. No one's gonna ding you for being gone for five minutes.

Yeah.

Sure.

Right.

But it's important. And you know, take time to enjoy your food. You know, drink enough fluids. Who cares? You have to take five minutes to go to the restroom. It's okay. It's called health. But just focus on, you know, more on what matters. Find a way to be happy because you're not going to have a chance to do it again if you just race through life. You know, what have you done? Or there's these people, you know, their goal in life, and this was never mine, make as much money as

Yeah. No shit. That's

I love that. it's such a good quote. All right, Lori, last question, my friend. This has been an excellent session. Last question. So you've written ten books on wellness and behavior change. What what do most people get wrong about wellness advice? and what do you think they could? Maybe the secondary part to that question is what do you hope? they take away from our session today about it.

yeah. yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, agreed.

Woof. Woof.

Wow. That's an addiction. Like

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean it's taken me it's taken me so many years. I mean it's so simple in principle, but it's taken me so many years to really follow through with some of those principles of not emailing on vacation or not, you know, doing certain things and setting boundaries.

Lord

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Exactly. Exactly. Lori, what do you hope the audience takes away from our conversation today as we wrap things wrap things up?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, Dad, you're full of shit. man. Well Lori I absolutely loved having you on the show. I'm glad the universe brought us together, my friend. I wish you well. We'll we'll put all the your links to your wellness and your coaching and your books in the description. So if anybody wants to get a home of Lori, they'll all be there. But I wish you the best.

I I

It's all good. It's all good. It's all good. I appreciate that. We'll talk soon. All right. Bye-bye.