Pastor. FBI Agent. Professional Scrabble Player. Eric Robinson's Three-Act Career.

Welcome to Life Between Titles. I'm your host, Savan, and today I've got Eric Robinson. Eric, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are.

still good morning.

nice. Nice. Where in the world are you my friend?

I'm in my basement. geographically. I'm in southern Michigan, just south of there we go. Just south of Detroit.

So am I.

Nice. How's the how's the weather over there, man? Is it getting hot yet or what?

I yeah, I don't I don't like hot weather and so it's i i it's the kind where you can't breathe. You know. I g I gotta wake up at four in the morning to to work out because if I don't then I'm just it's it's gross. So I like I like cool weather. I like it cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you must like it in the wintertime over there, more than the summertime.

I yeah, you can only take off so much clothes. So I like it. I can put on as much as I need to in the winter. That's that's much better.

I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. Well, you know, we're here today to talk about a book that you recently published or you will publish about your incredible journey. and it's a very remarkable career going from a pastor to an FBI agent now to a retired professional Scrabble player. and in many ways You know, there there are things about that journey that don't line up and we're gonna be diving into that today. But for the people that don't know who you are, if you had to explain yourself to a stranger that you had just met at a bar, you know, library, whatever, how would you explain yourself or how would you describe yourself?

Preacher to preacher.

Mm. Nice.

I obviously was I was in the pulpit on Sundays and then later I was the guy often tasked to knock down doors for our SWAT team. So I got to spend a good bit of time in a ministry in in a place that I enjoyed. I I felt like it it was fulfilling. It made sense for me. It was something I was good at. And then changed careers in two thousand and two to something that was even better. it's like breaking up with your girlfriend, you start crying and then you

Yes.

Meet the love of your life. And that was it for me.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's actually a great segue to my first question. So you had you had written in the book that, you know, when people ask you if you miss being a pastor, it's kind of like how you miss your ex, right? And then you remember why you guys broke up. what what did that what did that relationship cost you as you're going from one transition to the next? how did you know that you were breaking up with the right person? and then meeting or breaking up with the wrong person and then meeting that right person after that.

Yeah, I I didn't I that's why I took so long. So s everyone hearing understands I I spent two years where every single day I got stress related headaches from issues in ministry. And though I felt fulfilled, it the the issues that people brought to me were burdensome to me and so I didn't know how to deal with it. And yeah, I mean your question i is incorrect. My I was trying not to break up with the girlfriend. I was I was trying to stick it out too long until that relationship got to be untenable or I said, you know, I can't I can't handle this anymore. I had pushed through for too long, thinking, okay, you know, you can do this for a few months. Let's see if it passes, let's see if you you know, find some way through it, but it just never did. And I had to do something else. And then moving on to the FBI, you know, I thought

Yeah.

Pretty girls aren't gonna go out with you unless you ask. And this was way out of my league, just like my wife is, but hey, I had that going. So I thought, let me try with the FBI. And I was surprised when they called back and said, Yeah, no, let's keep this process going. And I got a second date.

Yeah, that's a that's an amazing that's an amazing story. How how did you become a pastor? Was there a series of things that led up to it? I would imagine that that doesn't that decision is not a overnight decision by any means.

No, I when I was a kid, I was always the one raising my hand in Sunday school, knowing the answers. I I was fortunate, grew up in a good family. We went to church each week. It wasn't the kind of Christian family that was pushing these values. Mom and dad were just supportive and that's what we did. So when I went to college, my faith became more personal. And as I studied and understood the Bible more, I thought, very practically speaking, this is something that I see as useful, I think I can do. And so I moved into ministry from there. And then after a a bit of sidetrack where my wife and I were preparing to be missionaries to Muslim countries, we stayed in the US and then went youth pastor, assistant pastor, and then finally senior pastor of a church in western New York.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What what about you know, the the this commitment to being a pastor is something that l intrigues me because I feel like it's not a job in the traditional sense where it's like a nine to five. You've you've got to really commit your whole life to it to be effective. were you ready to to do that at that point in your life?

was I and it is, it's nebulous. It was, you know, it you you go when you need to go, you find time otherwise when you have it. I thought I was gonna be doing this for fifty years 'cause you can preach when you're eighty. You know, it's not heavy lifting. It's fine to do that. And and I I was just focused on at the time, we had a church meant for outreach. We had a church that was meant to welcome people in who didn't normally go to church as opposed to just trying to

Yeah.

Right.

drawing people from other places. And I thought this this is finally doing ministry the way I think it's meant to, like not just feeding your own and being that self-licking ice cream cone, but expanding the borders. So I was focused in the time of like, this is great. Let's keep doing this. but then those down times, you know, just headaches, headaches.

Right.

So

Yeah, I mean the the thing that you talk about in your book is you you have these reoccurring headaches as as a pastor and then they eventually go away when you become an FBI agent. But I wanna maybe talk a little bit about the things that you think have have caused these headaches. And you know, just talking from personal experience, I the first place stress manifests for me is actually in my stomach. I used to have ulcers just from work and

Mm.

all the things that I was trying to do and and it's gotten better over the years. But you know, being a pastor, at least as an outsider looking in, seems like it is a very fulfilling job in that you are helping people in different capacities. and it's not just helping individuals but entire communities. And I would imagine that as an outsider looking in, that is something that will do the opposite. give you headaches and stress and cause physical pain, but that's not the actual case. Like explain to me why that is.

Yeah, it wasn't for me and other men and women have just been more successful or built different. So I I use shorthand to say people's issues became a burden to me, which i it was, but there there's other factors and since you want to dig in, I'll get into them. And and one is I felt like I had to be perfect. And I know that was self-imposed. It wasn't entirely self-imposed because th there are those factors of people expecting the pastor to be that right man. And you know, I can't smoke cigars or or drink bourbon, which I like to do, you know, so there's there's so I have burdens from other people. Now I'm having to feel like I have to be perfect, I have to always be on point. And then along with that too, I had nobody else around. I was fairly young, late twenties, early thirties, and I I had no one else to share these things with. I was the senior pastor, I was the soul pastor.

Yeah.

And so, you know, now I'm fifty-seven, I understand, I should have gone out and found somebody. I should have worked on this. I should have found resources to help me. But all those in combination. And then the final straw, as and I appreciate you asking, you know, more to the story, was my wife's pregnant with our first child, and like I I don't make squat for money. Our insurance comes from her work, which she makes nothing in. And it's now here's just one last thing where I have headaches. We don't have money. We don't have insurance. I've got to find a job. I've got to find something else.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I want to talk a little bit about that transition because that's what this podcast is about. when when you were having your your first child, what what did you do essentially the the first day that you realize something's gotta change? Is there some sort of reconciliation that you had to come to in terms of, man, I've gotta like expand. the things that I'm good at because I've been good at being a pastor for the last, you know what, ten years. And how did you come to that realization? Are th were there like charts that you made? I know people have life charts and all these skill charts and stuff like that. Like how did you how did you go from understanding that you needed to move on to then eventually finding a place with the FBI?

Yeah, I I didn't have any of that preparation. It was making that decision that I I'm I'm gonna start I'm gonna start looking for something and and at least have that outlet of let's see what else is out there. So I'm still pastoring, but I'm looking for the escape hatch. And so I applied for two jobs. I had a minor in college in journalism in writing, and so I applied for some trade magazine. That I felt like I was well overqualified for. And I thought, okay, you know, here's here's something I can let's see if this is an out. They turned me down and I thought, you know, you're stupid. And then I I the only other place I applied to was the FBI. And I thought, you know, I I'll I'll put that in process while I look for other things. And this was in 2000 when the internet was just a baby. So the internet was robust enough where I could go online and

Yeah.

Yeah then.

Yeah.

had to paper download sixty pages telling everywhere I lived, everybody I touched since I was sixteen, all the jobs

Yeah. I've I've I've done that. I've done that background check. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well well, I assume you've done it though like by clicking and then having another tab open where you can Google stuff. This was like phone calls of like

no. I mean I could I was able to Google it, but it's still a massive PDF, right? Like the S F eighty six is just it's incredible.

yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, f filled all that out. But, you know, i it was just those two in the meantime, and because I got some traction from the FBI, I thought, okay, well let's see where this goes. That it I I don't I I so this is twenty five years ago. I don't I don't even know why I was stupid enough to think a Baptist pastor with no law enforcement experience like, yeah, FBI yeah, that Sure, they might try me. I don't know why, but I did and it worked out. My my schooling and my experience, my training prior was in outreach to Muslims. I studied Islam. my application's in process, nine eleven hits, and the FBI says, Hey, we've got an al Qaeda problem. I think that probably had something to do with like, okay, we'll take a chance on this guy.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Were there things that you did cause I I mean, I look at you and i i i if someone if a stranger were to look at you, they wouldn't think, man, Eric's used to be a pastor, because you're built different. Like physically you're built different. Did you keep up with, you know, your your physical appearance and your endurance when you were a pastor, or was there like that that struggle that you had to do the moment you join the FBI because you've you've gotta be in pretty good shape to be chasing down people, right?

Yeah, well we don't do a lot of chasing. We usually point the gun and they stop. But so the it i I I mean you want to talk about transitions. This is part of a transition as well. When when I got into the FBI, I was marathon running. The marathon running came from the headaches. The only thing that made my headaches go away were was running. I I I was running a bit at the time and so as I went out running, I went, you know, that half hour I was running

Yeah.

Yeah.

My headache went away. And then I get a little afterglow of maybe an hour or so until it came back. So I thought, let's run more. So that built up to where I go, I'm gonna try a marathon. And I so now as a marathon runner, funny story to that is day two in the FBI Academy is when you take that fit test. You have to you have to be successful in the field and then they test you at Quantico. And like we're still learning people's names.

Yeah.

And I had a buddy who ended up being number three in the bureau, great guy. And he says, I see this this skinny white kid line up in front and take off at the gun, and I say to myself, I'm gonna see you later. And I did after he lapped me because he thought I was just stupid. You know, I'm like, Hey man, this is great, I'm a runner. But but then Injuries caused me to have to transition from like I can't run as much anymore and now I'm going to do weightlifting and, you know, that served a purpose on SWAT team for breaching.

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. Tell me about what that was like that first week where you were officially part of the FBI. What was going on in your head?

Big eyes. so I'm transitioning into a new career, something that I'm unfamiliar with, but you know, hey, I'm I'm a pretty smart guy, I'll figure this out, but it's still, you know, hey, this is new. That's nothing. The big transition is going from my small church, I you know, medium sized church, my church in a small town to this hundred year old storied institution that's the the most elite law enforcement agency in the world. And understanding the scope of it. So much of what we're learning is just how how you operate cases. You know, we're learning law, we're learning interview process, but then you've got the FBI. And so I I estimate 24 years in the FBI, I probably I understand 75% of it. It's there's just so much. To the last days I was learning, I didn't know we had that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

technique or I didn't know this guy does this thing. It's it's so huge.

Yeah, I mean that that sounds so much like my journey going into the Department of Defense, now the Department of War, you know, having a technology background at startups and companies like, you know, Microsoft and Amazon, then all of a sudden you're thrust into this, you know, five sided building with armed guards and you're like, What the hell am I doing here? And you're like, How did I how did what life decisions did I make to eventually land me in this building? And and and I think like the it was jarring at first, but I completely agree with you. I mean, you know, after ten years there, I feel like I still haven't scratched the surface of knowing all the things that you need to know for the DOD.

yeah.

Yeah, I have no doubt. When you get into those huge institutions and number one, you figure out your you know, for me, this is my violation I'm working. These are the guys around me. This is how you work a dope case. And if I find out some other stuff by pitching in on other squads or getting experience somewhere else, great. But you know, it's it it's slowly expanding. I ended up working j just about every violation the bureau covers, other than maybe cyber. So, you know, along the way I'm getting to see many different aspects. And again, still there's there's a lot I don't know.

Yeah. Eric, I want to talk a little bit about one of the things you'd mentioned in the book where, you know, you said the FBI could maintain the same beliefs and values, just a different environment workload and tasking. Tell me a little bit about that. 'cause I would imagine that there's a strong sense of belief in being a pastor and a strong set of core values that you had to have. what things changed and what things remained the same when you became an FBI agent?

Well, I think if I was carrying a gun as a pastor, I assume like offerings might have gone up. we could we could use that. You know, we're gonna pass that pass that basket around again. but I I had this internal sense of I was still doing God's work. And I didn't feel like it was manipulative, like, hey, I can I can still be, you know, that man of God. I I I sense that

Maybe. Yeah.

Well.

Obviously in the church I was doing that, but I was I had this feeling that in law enforcement, hey, bringing justice is something God wants. if I'm doing this right, that can be also something that's still in line. And then I started working in the employee assistance program. I I headed that up in Chicago and I worked with one of our chaplains who was a 30 year chaplain with Chicago PD, and Father Tom says, yeah, I mean, he tells me without you know me introducing it, he goes, You guys are doing God's work. And I thought, yeah, that's what I always thought. And and he was affirming this. Like this, this is a noble thing to do. You can abuse it. You can abuse things in church too. but it felt still in line with what I was doing before. So I from the beginning, I felt very comfortable in in this, that you get into the FBI and

Yeah.

There's a definite sense, environment, morale that says we do things right. Not just by the book right, but morally right. And that felt good. So some of the scenes that y we see on videos and in the news now where federal agents are doing things and people are going, That doesn't look proper. I can tell you that while I was in the FBI and now I chat with guys who are still in, they say the same thing.

Yeah.

That's not right. Like I wouldn't do that. You can't do that. And that was affirming to know that I'm in with a group that says, Hey, we're gonna do things right and moral too.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, was there you know, the the the interesting thing about being a a civil servant is you you take the job regardless of what's going on in in the political world and you serve the country and you serve your people above everything else. And that's sort of why you do You don't do it for the money or the vacation or the perks. was there ever a time where you felt like your belief in the system in the FBI waned or started to go away?

Well well first I want to know what your perks were that you guys got.

we didn't get it. I mean, my my perk was I I got a I got a room with no window in it most of the days.

that's gross. I d so I there was nothing s so to your question, I if you can repeat that once again, 'cause I got carried away with telling jokes, I apologize. But the basis of your question was

no, no worries. No worries. No, I I w I'm just wondering like during your time in the FBI, did your did your belief in the system ever wane or go away?

they believe in the system. No no, it it it didn't wane. It was just a better understanding. So you come in and from the beginning you you know, I'm taught, okay, this is the process, this is what you can do. And it wasn't that it the system I didn't see the system as a problem or as broken. I just saw its limitations. So I work a case. we we start out in Chicago working drug cartels. So

Yeah. So

Here's five guys we want to indict. And the prosecutor comes back and says, We're not, we're not taking these two. And so it took time for me to understand why. Not because they're lazy, not because they have a different belief system or they come from a different side of the political spectrum. It's because they would see these guys we can probably convict, but they are also very likely to go to trial. I don't have time to go to trial. A and, you know, sometimes you'd fight for that, but it wasn't feeling like things are broken. It's just understanding that, okay, new administration's in, they're emphasizing a maybe something a little different. You know, not mandating, but emphasizing or giving allowances. And then you just come back to, well, I I can only work the cases my informants bring me. So fine. You know, that that's nice, but I'm still doing what's in front of me. So those changes didn't really mean a whole lot once you got down to the field agent level.

Yeah. Right, right. Eric, did your headaches completely go away when you were in the FBI or did you still have some semblance of them?

No man, completely. It was I I mean I've had headaches since then, but I haven't had like two days in a row, three days in a row of headaches. And this was every single day, every day that I had them. And I I recall too, like as soon as I got that acceptance in the FBI, that's when they went away. And I remember thinking, I don't have to do this anymore. I mean, they both it together it was my head doesn't hurt.

Mm-hmm.

And this isn't something I have to keep fighting against. And it that that was my cue that okay, this is the right decision. Cause up to that point I was fighting it, like, hey, come on, Eric, we can keep doing this. And it's much like, you know, if you're doing an ultra marathon or something like that, you're exhausted, but at what point do you stop and you have to just decide, I I need to make a decision before my body. makes that for me. I have to say this is enough.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm interested in in knowing a little bit more about sort of how you got over this idea that you had to be perfect. And that, you know, was one of the reasons why you were getting these headaches as a pastor was the self-imposed perfectionism. and in the FBI in very much the same way, although maybe with different circumstances, you are making decisions on the spot. You're making decisions that impact not just your life, but the life of, you know, the victims, the perpetrators, the organization. I mean, these aren't like small decisions by any means. tell me a little bit about how you got over the this idea of having to be perfect, especially when your decisions that you're making are are so much more in terms of impact, right, that that they have on the entire world.

Yeah. And and yet for me they didn't feel like they had more impact. Because I I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I I was dealing with people's personal lives and you know th the fact that someone comes to me and says, Hey, my for example, one of our worship leaders says, you know, my husband is having a mental break and so he met a girl online and he's gonna leave the family, you know, me and the four kids, like that that doesn't That doesn't go away with the Bible verse. So that's still going. And even if he leaves, which he did, and I'm still interacting with that family, like I'm still wearing that. my gosh, you know, they're hurting. And in the FBI, absolutely, life and death decisions, you know, you're taking away people's liberties. But there was so much of a check process along the way that I felt comfortable of, okay, this is a proper indictment. A judge signs off.

Yeah.

My supervisor, the prosecutor, everyone is saying yes to this. This wasn't just me being the only one deciding. And on top of that, going into the FBI, I didn't have to be perfect. I just had to be a good FBI agent. There there wasn't that surrounding again, even if it was just the scent of needing to be perfect, there's still going to be s the some truth to.

I'm not sure.

Tchau.

Yeah.

the congregation saying you need to be a perfect man. There's still some to that. And then I amplified it. In the FBI, I I can make mistakes and there's people there to check me on them. And but I just needed to do my job well. And when I did, now it's accomplished. It's not like that family whose dad left where it's still he's left. That's done. Justice, I've accomplished this. Now next case. Let's move on to this one too.

Yeah, yeah. Eric, I want to maybe take it back a little bit and for the people that don't know what it's like to be an FBI agent, talk talk a little bit about what that initial process is for onboarding and and and what that looks like. and maybe this is a pitch for other people that may want to join, you know, CIA, FBI, any of the three letter agencies. What does that look like the first couple of months?

Yeah, I highly, highly recommend joining the FBI in whatever fashion, if it's agent or professional staff. Great place. The best people I've ever met are in the FBI. And I although I will say this, I don't know that much about the CIA. I've interacted with a decent number of officers. I would not recommend that unless you're gonna be single, because that's just gonna wreck it's gonna wreck family. So I'll I'll speak to the FBI. And

That's just gonna roll. Uh-huh.

Yeah.

as we have commiserated, it is a damn long form to fill out. You start with everything. You need to be clean. You know, you need to if you're gonna be an agent, have a bachelor's degree, at least three years of experience out in the real world on top of that. you don't need criminal justice degree, minds and religion. You don't need special skills. They'll teach you that. I never handled a gun. I ended up being a firearms instructor later. So These are things that you can learn along the way. The Bureau is, no matter what you hear, is has always been looking for diversity. So that can be gender and background, but it's also career, knowledge base, experience. We can always get former cops, former military. They bring great things to investigations, but then also We want people who are teachers, we want people who are attorneys, we want people who are ministers. And they're now you can collaborate with creativity and the bureaus always look to bring folks from different perspectives, which makes it stronger. So you fill all that out, and as for an agent, phase one is taking an aptitude test. When I took it, I thought, well, at least I tried. And then they called back and I thought, that's surprising.

Mm-hmm.

after that there is a a written examination and then an oral question answer where you're on a panel of three agents and they're asking you, tell me a time when, you know, you had a conflict with a coworker, what was the situation, what did you do, what was the results from that? And that's gonna be an hour of you being quizzed on you. after that there's physical fit test, which the answers are online, but Like half people at least failed a fit physical the fitness test, which is surprising 'cause you know what's expected. background examination and and polygraph and polygraphed. Savanna you've been polygraphed, right?

Yeah. Uh-huh. Yep.

Is that so I can speak definitively that being polygraphed is worse than giving birth.

Yes, that's so true.

It's a it's a ter it's a terrible experience. I have I have run multiple marathons. I sweat more during that two hours in the polygraph. And I was a I was a pastor.

Yeah, I mean I I feel like, you know, with with that there there's certain there's certain things that come up and you're like, well I don't I don't you know, I'm not going to lie, but how much am I going to tell? And what it and and and you in the back of your head you're like, is this gonna flag anything, right? Like you just don't know what the system's gonna do. And it's that uncertainty to me that makes me sweat and that makes me like super nervous.

Yeah. I I went through and and the guy you know, like we go through a couple of times and then the guy goes, well, we're having a problem here on whether you are an agent of another government. And I'm like, okay. You know, if that's what you if that's what you have a problem with, now I've now I'm settled down and ace from there 'cause okay, you know, I I'm worried about like something else. Like did it you know, did I s take something? Did you know, are they counting

Yeah.

You know so now, okay. If that's what's showing up n now I'm now I'm easy.

No, then.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Eric, what was what was your progression like throughout the FBI? in the book, you know, you mentioned that that you worked in in a couple of different capacities, including, you know, investigating crimes against children, but what was your progression like as you as you went from the onboarding, you're officially an agent now? What did what did that journey look like?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so I I believe and my background again, my background seemed like they'd put me in counterterrorism because I had I understood Islam. Okay. So right off the bat, drug squad in Chicago. So the bureau says this guy might might know how to deal with Muslims, and then Chicago Division says, we need a body working drug cartel. So five years drugs, year year and a half working gangs in Chicago, and then two years

Yeah.

Yeah.

working year and a half, two years working public corruption and civil rights. From Chicago, then I get a transfer back home to the Toledo, Ohio area and I work organized crime, crimes against children, financial crime, national security with a stint working human intelligence there in the middle.

Of all those things, what was the the stint or the period that you enjoyed the most?

so couple factors here. I really enjoyed working financial crimes because well in the academy, our financial our white collar instructor was so dull. He was terrible and I thought, I don't ever want to do financial crimes. When I was assigned that, I thought, okay, let's see. And it's it was like putting a crossword puzzle together, like you're s it it was like doing Scrabble, even better, as we talked before. and so

Yeah.

before.

That was that was great. Complex financial investigations, like boom boom, here you go. Working dope. I sell you drugs. I'm a drug dealer. That's it. You know, that's pretty simple. These had a lot more of the aspects to it. And then when I finished out my career working national security, counterterrorism, then I got to be with some of my favorite people. on a squad were just closely banded together with some of my best friends. So

Yeah.

That that was s I enjoyed closing out my career with that group of people.

Yeah. man, it seems like you've worked across all spectrums of evils that that men can do against each other or that humans can do against each other from you know, gang violence to drug corruption to white collar crimes to terrorism, like that whole spectrum has been fulfilled. Ha what about sort of working all these different cases, has it told you about the humans in general, right? Has it has it either increased your faith in humanity or decreased your faith in humanity based on the experiences of things you've seen? Because you've seen more than I would say ninety nine percent of the humans on this planet have seen.

yeah. W when I was in ministry, I would have discussions with my dad, who I love and we get along great. And and he would say to me, and I was young, he'd say, You're very sheltered, Eric. You know, you you work in the church, you're only seeing the church people. And then later in my life, I'm talking to a teenage girl who's prostituting with men. I'm talking to kids who are in gangs in Chicago. I'm sitting down with actual terrorists who are coming from another country and now are citizens here. Like s so yeah, getting to see a lot more. And so it it didn't increase or decrease my faith. It broadened it because my dad was correct. I I was looking I dealt with church people. So that is a a very homogeneous group. And

Mm-hmm.

They all we all had the same beliefs, maybe a little bit at different profiles here and there, but it it's this there these are the people who are choosing to be together. Now I'm getting to meet people who come from all sorts of walks of life, and I'm I'm making things in my mind less less linear. It isn't necessarily sin or not sin, black or white. There's here's a guy who is selling drugs. Well, okay.

Yeah.

I know why he's selling drugs. He's selling drugs for these reasons. It doesn't justify it, but there's there's that humanity behind it. Here's a girl who's prostituting. Why is she doing it? For these reasons. Here's the pimp. He's a horrible person. Here's how he got into that mindset because he is with men who glorify this and he's wanting to fulfill himself in that disgusting way. So It it really broadened my understanding of humanity. And so maybe it increased my faith a bit in in people because now I get to see this is what this is what more people are like and what they're capable of. And even the the the horrible, horrible ones, the you know, the sex offenders, they had their reasons too. And they would tell you all about it.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, in in in one of your passages of your book, you you're writing about, you know, investigating crimes against children and and sex crimes, and you you say the the dark underbelly of prostitution was filled with broken people and the monstrous ones who took advantage of them. And I thought that was such a profound line because one, I'm a I'm a big fan of Batman, and The the reason why I love Batman is because the line between good and bad is very gray. And you don't really know sort of how people have gotten to where they are. For you, your job is literally to make sure that you understand what those lines are so you can prosecute the people who are doing evil in the world. What does it take to to be able to clearly figure out, okay, this is a monster monstrous person or this is a person who just by chance had gotten to be where they are.

Well, and so you know, you say monstrous person and and great job of using it to describe I was always careful to stay away from that person is a monster because he he's not a monster. He's a human. And I had to find something that connected that I could identify with with all these people. I I mean there's there's criminals that I I loathe. They're terrible. But I they weren't monsters

Yeah.

there was a process for how they got to where they are. And there was always something that I could identify with. You know, I'm I'm talking to you know teenage girl who is now going out and having intercourse with multiple strange men who I've met these men. They're they're not they're not handsome. They're disgusting. And I need to connect with her so that I can help her, even though she doesn't want me to, because I'm a threat to her survival. And you know, a lot of times it's humor. A lot of times it's it's consistency and showing up. I worked with my partner Laura on this and she's a sweet person. And I watched just the frustration of her kindly going to some of these girls and getting yelled at or turned down and

Yeah.

But then it makes sense. Laura's law enforcement. Law enforcement just tries to catch you. Laura's an adult. Every single adult in my life is useless or harmful to me. Laura is ultimately trying to separate me from the one adult who's actually shown me love. He's not, but that's what this young girl thinks. And that Now I can use to find ways around. Let's short circuit your issues with me, with Laura, so that we can do what we know is best for you. And more importantly, get that guy off the street, not harming other girls.

Yeah. Yeah. Eric, I wanna position the conversation, talk about your your book specifically now. Now that you've retired from the FBI, you're a professional Scrabble player, you're an aspiring author, you've got this book. The title of the book is Irreverent. and I absolutely love that. And it does quite a few things, at least what I took out of it, but I wanna hear How you came up with that title, what does it mean to you and how does it represent your storied career?

So I I'll I'll answer that, but I'll ask you this first, because one of my beta readers said this and and it's tough because I want people to pick up the book, but her comment, which I think is true, is did the did the title make more sense after you read it?

There's there's a lot in the book that to me as an outside reader felt like there were conflicting things, that there were things that that had happened that I would never expect to have happened, whether it's your career journey, the types of cases that you worked on, how you approached certain things, whether it's like an interrogation. And and and it felt like it wasn't just one person that was the main character, right? You i in and the reper your representation of the book felt like you were multiple people, in all honesty. But the through line of all of it is like you're saying, there's there's this continuous fight for goodness and justice and hope through your work and through the commitments that you have. So like it it it it it's a very I don't know if it's a very I don't know if I would title your book irreverent, which is why I'm asking the question. I think like I may use different words, but I do think that the through line of your story and the through line of your career is something that carries throughout the book. And that's what makes it so fascinating is you've got this juxtaposition of all these different things that's happening and and being able to sort of like tie that all in together ha and having it be one person, right? It's not like a a group of people that that that are doing this. I don't know if that makes sense or not. I probab probably was rambling there.

Well that that's yeah, that's a fascinating take. so I need to see a psychologist, I think, is is the to some summarize. so play on words is part of it, obviously, but the reverend is what runs through it. I did did you s did I share with you the the book cover? Have we have you seen that?

Yeah.

no, you just sent me the the the document. I don't know if you chose a book cover yet when we first talked.

I yeah, I don't think so we connected early. So here here it is real quick. Like so the graphic designer really came up with a great way to to sh to show it. Isn't that good? So y you know, we worked together on that. And and the and I think that highlights even more like, okay, so I'm I was a reverend, I was the preacher, I was doing this, and and that's what goes throughout. So all along that was always me. I I left I left being in the pulpit, but I was

I see. Yeah. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

The guy I was in the pulpit is the guy who just then went into the FBI. And some of it is what I did. I don't want people to get the impression that I did immoral things. I I'm I did, but I don't want that's not the main idea of the book. It's it's more of I went from much like my I said my dad told me, I went from a sterile universe of y having church and communion and this is what we do to

Mm-hmm.

Very literally s sitting in a parking lot with a fifteen year old prostitute smoking a cigar so I could build rapport with her as she was showing us houses where she had tricked. And and that's that's not church, you know? That's not what you see in that very the the there's nothing there's no sanctity to that. There's no holiness to that, but but damn it, that is holy. Like this me.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Smoking a cigar with a prostitute so that I can win her over was for a very, very good purpose. And so i i it it it combines like that. Like I'm a guy who I want to do good and I feel like I did, and I I wanted to treat people well. And even with the criminals, I was still treating them with compassion to a large degree, and yet

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm rolling around with them too. I'm in their world. And it feels well, I was gonna get into a a very blasphemous comparison, but I feel like that's what Christ did. You know, not not that I'm comparing myself to him, but that like that's the way it should be. Church is great, wonderful place for the way it has been for a couple thousand years. But also I was having church on the streets of Chicago.

Right.

Yeah.

as I'm doing surveillance trying to help the citizens and clean up the corners there. So that's my long answer to how I came up with Irreverend.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Eric, as we approach sort of the last part of our segment, I want to ask you a couple reflection-like questions. and, you know, as you get to publishing your book here, what's what's one thing that you hope the readers take away after they've finished your book?

I hope and I and I I expect that people read it and go, that could have been me. I could do that. I've there's there I've read other FBI books that are fascinating. Like here's a guy who goes undercover for years, you know, you've got the Donnie Brasco story. That's amazing. And not many people are gonna read that and go, Yeah, I could do that. I could go undercover for ten years and get a gun stuck in my face.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But I think pe so again, Savannah, you tell me. Like when you're when you read the book for whatever parts you went through, or you're going like this guy doesn't seem like anything special. I could be that guy. It's just this is normal people doing some exceptional work.

You know, it it it didn't take i I didn't take that away. Like I I I think I think if anything, Eric, I think there's something fantastical about the story and almost in a way where you just didn't know if it was a real thing. Right? Like if somebody had said, if if I were pitching you a book and you were an agent or a publisher and I was pitching you a book and I said, I'm gonna write this fictitious book. It's about a a pastor who then becomes an FBI agent and I guarantee you nobody would publish that book if it wasn't a real thing. And it's it's almost fantastical in that way. And and I don't know if it's because of the nature of how you did it or the things that you had gone through and the different divisions of the FBI that you'd worked in, the different cases, but that's how it read to me.

Yeah, and and what's crazy is so those cases, agents will tell stories all the time. And y I you know, you tell me your story and I go, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard that one. You know, you've told me that one before. But if that story gets told to anybody else, you know, you you're just in the supermarket, people go, my gosh, are you serious? And I have this understanding that these stories are amazing. And but they're normal. They're normal. It's just

yeah.

Mm-hmm.

This is a case. And and I can find like I can take cases other buddies worked and like let me tell you this story and you go, Holy smokes, are you serious? But those are your everyday FBI cases. Obviously I had a lot of dull time, a lot of a lot of frustrating times in the FBI too. But if if if you let me just pull this one out and you go, Okay, I'm gonna highlight this. This is this one took two years, but I'm I'm gonna put it into one chapter, you go, that's pretty cool.

Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. what about the the book writing process as you look back in time and you're trying to collect all the stories and all the experiences you've had? The the book writing process itself, how was that for you? Was that therapeutic? Did it bring back certain things? how did you go about sort of writing it from beginning to end?

Yeah, it definitely was therapeutic. It so I think that in many ways agents use their storytelling as to be therapeutic. So it's coming out. It's not just something I'm holding on to. Yeah, in some ways it's bragging, it's recounting stuff, but a lot of the stories that are told, and I I use this for an example, like I'm on the SWAT team for years and guys will still say, Hey, remember that time. Phil and one other agent went up to the top deck and it was pitch black, and Phil ended up stepping on a guy on the subject trying to hide underneath a bunch of clothes, and he had a loaded shotgun in his right hand. And you're like, my gosh, yeah, like people could have died. And anyone else would go, That's horrific. And yeah, that's true. It was that is horrific. But but it's a survivor story. Like I'm telling it like it's funny because

Yeah.

Remember how we almost died, but then we didn't? Yeah, we're still here. So yeah, writing the things down, it's it it was therapeutic. I was nearing the end of my career, so a lot of it was man, let me look back. That was that was good. I enjoyed this. And so many of like it's funny 'cause some of them are my go to stories too. That you know, here we are

Yeah. Yeah.

This is a new agent. Like, you haven't heard this one, let me tell you this one. And so so it was fun putting that down digitally.

Yeah.

Is is your wife tired of of your stories yet or or does she still enjoy hearing them?

probably tired. I mean, I try to keep track of which you're like you haven't told me this one. So with my wife, and I don't I don't remember if I put this in the book. I probably did, but so I moved from ministry to law enforcement and I w I moved from my wife and I working ministry together to now she's just home with the kids. And from the beginning in Chicago, she's like, Hey, text me when you're safe. And she she was very worried about me. And I go, Babe, I'm not getting shot. If I die, it's it's a car accident or I get a heart attack, you know, from sitting all day. And then late in my career, I'm on SWAT, I'm doing all sorts of things. And I tell my wife, hey, we've got a SWAT operation coming up on Tuesday. And she says, Okay, I'll put it in the calendar. And I go,

Yeah.

Well, the guy's kind of dangerous actually. And she goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, Well, he told an informant he wouldn't be taken alive. And she goes, I said I'd put it in the calendar. What do want? You know? So she'd so completely changed to like, I'm so scared and nervous to like, yeah, he comes home every time. Yeah, it's fine.

man, I like your wife. That's hilarious. god. Eric, what what do you hope your your kids take away from from your journey from being an aspiring pastor to being a the a minister and then FBI agent and now an author as your kids look back? What do you hope they take away from all this?

Yeah.

thanks for asking that. I so n none of really knew w were a pastor's kid, too young to remember anything. And that was the only my oldest was there during that time. So for them I was just always an FBI agent and and they really didn't care. And you know, much like my wife, like they adopted my wife's later attitude so much earlier where I was like, they you know, they Say, hey, if you want me to speak at your school, I can do that. And they're like, why would I want you to speak at my school? I'm like, I I'm on an FBI SWAT team. It's kind of cool. Like, is it though, Dad? And I say, Yeah, it is. So yeah, this will be something that with the book they can look back and I hope they read it. My oldest has read it, gave me some feedback, but i you know, this is me having those memories that

Yeah.

Later when I'm past and then maybe they're sad they can go back and hear some of those stories. I think they've heard most of along the way. You know, there's some point where I've told those at the dinner table, but it's nice to have it in a collection.

Right.

Nice, nice. Eric, last question for you, my friend. I want you to put on a different hat and you are now a book reviewer, a critic, as some would say, and they've read your book. I want you to tell me what you think they would say about it.

Mm.

I like what you said, that it's it's too fantastical to be true. And and you've done no you've done zero due diligence. Like I could just be like on some Toastmasters, you know, speaking circuit to say who can c who can come up with the craziest stories? Like you've done zero to look into is this guy real? I I it's hard for me because it's my baby and

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And as I've worked with editors and I've worked with some readers to go through it, they've pointed out things to me to say, hey, is this really a strong chapter or paragraph? And I go, No, it's not. You're right. Let's cut that and let's let the better material stand out instead of having a lot of okay material and then one good one. You know, you you shave that down, that's gonna stand out more. So I feel I feel good that people will People who there's gonna be a group of people who don't care for what I wrote. They have no interest in it. But it doesn't have to be true crime fanatics. It doesn't have to be people who are into memoirs. I think a lot of the stuff in there will be surprising and engaging for folks. So if I was a critic, I would give it, you know, whatever number stars I can and tell everyone this is a it's it's a must read. Couldn't put it down.

Amazon bestseller, there you go.

Yeah.

man. Well my friend, I appreciate you coming on. We'll put your book in the description and in the Substack article and in the LinkedIn and all those other things. I wish you well, I wish the book well and I'm glad the universe brought us together.

I appreciate very much. Thanks so much for your your feedback too about some things you read there.

Yeah, no worries. We'll talk again soon.

All right. Thanks, Savan.