The Honorable John Sherman: Why Kindness Is the Most Underrated Leadership Strategy

Welcome to Work Unscripted. I'm your host, Savan, and today I've got my good friend, the honorable John Sherman. John, how are you?

Welcome to Work on Scripted. I'm your host, the Van, and today I've got my good friend, the honorable John Sherman. John, how are you? Sir, I'm doing well. It's so good to be talking to you and I was just, your ears should have been burning. I was talking about user experience and bragging on some of the work you did at the five-sided building. Yes, I love it. I love it.

and I was just here.

Yes, I love it. I love it. You've always been such a proponent of leading with customer experience and user experience. I want to dive into that later on, but I want to get started with our conversation on a post you wrote on LinkedIn, your proficient writer on LinkedIn. And this was about nine months ago. So we're going in the time machine here and

I want to dive into that later on, but... on a post you wrote on LinkedIn, you're proficient writer on LinkedIn, and this was about nine months ago. So go to the title screen here. And the post that you wrote was titled, The Joy of Reading and Living with Timeness and Compassion as a North Star. And I want to read.

The post that you wrote was titled, The Joy of Leading and Living with Kindness and Compassion as a North Star. And I want to read verbatim what you wrote in that first couple of sentences. You had said, for several years, a number of folks have told me how respectful and kind I am on this platform and in real life interactions. I wasn't always like this.

verbatim what you wrote in that first couple sentences you had said. For several years

I am on this platform and in real life interaction. I wasn't always like this coming out of college. I was beyond intense often aggressive and ready to conquer the world and that has been in my brain ever since he wrote it and I want to start with this my friend before the accolades before all the things you've done I want to get your perspective on what you were

coming out of college, was beyond intense, often aggressive, and ready to conquer the world. And that post has stood in my brain ever since you wrote it. And I want to start with this, my friend, before the accolades, before all the things you've done, I want to get your perspective on what you were thinking when you wrote that and how you lead with kindness because

Well, thank you for teeing that one up. And I'd almost forgotten about that post. There's so much vitriol in the world today. So much we don't talk, we debate. We go to our corners. We assume someone who disagrees with us is our enemy.

As a person who's known you for many years, I think you embodied this perfectly. So I'd like to start with that. Well, thank you for paying that one up. And I'd almost forgotten about that. There's so much vitriol in the world today, so much we don't talk, we debate. Yeah, we go to our corners. We assume someone who disagrees with us is our enemy, not just a fellow citizen of the country or the world who may have different opinions on.

not just a fellow citizen of the country or the world who may have different opinions on some things. And whatever our religious faith or whatever our background, wherever our origins are, I think being kind to one another, assuming goodness, we often talk about assuming noble intent, but that's a little more difficult in practice. You got to be more deliberate about that and try not to talk past each other. Try to really empathize.

things. And whatever our religious faith or whatever our background, wherever our origins are, I think being kind to one another, assuming goodness, we often talk about assuming noble intent, but that's a little more difficult in practice, you got to be more deliberate about that. And try not to talk past each other. Try to really empathize and hear and be kind. You know, have love in your heart and the most

and hear and be kind. know, have love in your heart and the most broad way you can say that. And indeed here at A we just held a civil discourse symposium. The administration asked me to lead about how do we stop talking past each other and have disagreements, but without hatred or without malice and be able to get through some things. because I'll say, and I know this is moving beyond kindness.

broad way you can say that. indeed here at A we just held a civil discourse symposium. The administration asked me to lead about how do we stop talking past each other and have disagreements but without hatred or without malice and be able to get through some things. because I'll say, and I know this is moving beyond kindness, I think democracy and the best parts of our country are built on trying to work across

I think democracy and the best parts of our country are built on trying to work across partisan boundaries and so on. So that's what I was thinking about being kind. Kind doesn't always mean being a pushover or not holding a workforce accountable, but it does mean having goodness in your heart. So that's why I come at that one. Right, right. And in many ways, you know, I think this idea of kindness

partisan boundaries and so on. So that's what I was thinking about being kind. Kind doesn't always mean being a pushover or not holding a workforce accountable, but it does mean having goodness in your heart. That's why I've come at that one. Right, right. And in many ways, I think this idea of kindness and not being a pushover is one where...

being a pushover is one where sometimes the most kind thing you can do is to give that direct feedback or speak the truth of whatever you're thinking. And a lot of times nowadays, we try to avoid these hard conversations because we think we're being kind, but in reality, it's maybe having the opposite effect. From your experience, John, what are some of the things that

Sometimes the most kind thing you can do is to give that direct feedback or speak the truth of whatever you're thinking. And a lot of times nowadays, we try to avoid these hard conversations because we think we're being kind, but in reality, it's maybe having the opposite effect. And from your experience, what are some of the things that you've done to maybe help

you've done to maybe help those conversations along so that I think there is in part a skill that we've learned throughout the years. You don't immediately jump into school and they teach you these things about how to be both direct but also just spend more time to figure it out. Like what have you done over the years at college? So Van, you brought up a very good point that also kindness can be honesty and giving

those conversations along because I think there is an art and a skill that you learn throughout the years. You don't immediately jump into school and they teach you these things about how to be both direct but also respectful and kind to your peers. Like what have you done over the years that's helped? So Van, you brought up a very good point that also kindness can be honesty. Right. And giving career feedback

career feedback, performance feedback in a constructive way. And indeed, by not doing that, that can be a mean thing. If you let somebody flounder or don't let them get up to par, you're actually doing them a disservice. How do you learn this? think watching mentors, learning from one's mistakes, understanding what I just said, it's hard to have tough conversations.

feedback in a constructive way. And indeed, by not doing that, that can be a mean thing. If you let somebody flounder, or don't let them get up to par, you're actually doing them a disservice. How do you learn this? think watching mentors, learning from one's mistakes, understanding what I've just said, it's hard to have tough conversations.

But long as a person understands you're coming from a good place, and it may sting a little bit when you're trying to say, that was, you really did some good work getting this ready for the Deputy Secretary, but it didn't land quite, I think, the way you wanted it to. And maybe we could have come at that a little bit differently. It's a much different approach than trolling the person or backstabbing them later or throwing them under the bus.

But long as a person understands you're coming from a good place, and it may sting a little bit when you're trying to say, hey, that was, you really did some good work getting this ready for the Deputy Secretary, but it didn't land quite, I think, the way you wanted it to. And maybe we could have commented that little bit differently. It's a much different approach than trolling the person or backstabbing them later or throwing them under the

and really understanding how to give constructive criticism and also receive it as well, where it's from a good place and not have thin skin when somebody is truly saying, hey, we could have done better on this. Let me show you how you do better next time. So that to me is something that has served me well. And it's a lifelong kind of experience to learn. You can never be content. Continue to soak in those lessons. I talked to the students here a lot at the Bush School about being lifelong learners.

And really understanding how to give constructive criticism and also receive it as well, where it's from a good place and not have thin skin. When somebody is truly saying, Hey, we could have done better on this. Let me show you how you do better next time. So that to me is something that has served me well. And it's a lifelong kind of experience. You can never be content. Continue to soak in those lessons. I talked to the students here a lot at the Bush School about being light long. learners. Yeah, you've demonstrated that in your own career. You cannot just freeze on what you know. And that means on the EQ type things as well. Yeah, absolutely. And that's actually a perfect segue, my friend, to my next question for you, which is a sec. Actually, it's the first part of of your posts, which was about when you left college and you were aggressive and you know, you were

You've demonstrated that in your own career. You cannot just freeze on what you know. And that means on the EQ type things as well. Yeah, absolutely. And that's actually a perfect segue, my friend. My next question for you, which is first part of your post, which was about when you left college and you were aggressive and you were this.

this different person ready to take on the world, what had switched? Where were you going to college? How did you make that switch? When did you realize like maybe this is not me and who I want to be in the future? Well, I think it's understandable coming up.

different person ready to take on the world. has what area you want to college? How do you make that switch when you realize like, he's not mad? Well, I think it's understandable coming out of a military type school here at Texas A and the Corps of Cadets and getting us ready to serve in the various military services as lieutenants or ensigns and you come out with a certain go take the hill sort of charge.

getting us ready to serve in the various military services, as lieutenants or insens. And you come out with a certain go take the hill sort of charge, which is maybe appropriate for a lieutenant. But as you move up to more senior ranks, even the military, civilian, business worlds, you have to learn and develop on that too and realize that you have to be more nuanced on how you approach things, to the empathy. And again, empathy doesn't mean being a pushover on.

which is maybe appropriate for a lieutenant, but as you move up to more senior ranks, even the military, civilian, business worlds, you have to learn and develop on that too and realize that you have to be more nuanced on how you approach things back to the empathy. And again, empathy doesn't mean being a pushover on things. You need to demand excellence, achieve what the mission is, but it took years to get through that. And I think was once I got the CIA,

You need to demand excellence, achieve what the mission is. But it took years to get through that. And I think what it once I got to CIA and saw what good leadership looked like, and in some cases, bad leadership, and tried to take some of those lessons on. And I'll admit, too, I can still get angry or I can still mimic some of the behaviors that I found upon reflection off putting. But I have to check myself on that.

and saw what good leadership looked like and in some cases bad leadership and tried to take some of those lessons on. And I'll admit too, I can still get angry or I can still mimic some of the behaviors that I found upon reflection off putting, but I have to check myself on that or have someone say, hey, I'll give you an example. I've got a new chief of staff here, great guy, and he's retired Navy captain.

or have someone say, hey, I'll give you an example. I've got a new chief of staff here, red guy, and he's retired Navy captain. And he says, sir, you're being a little too knife hand with that. Now you might remember knife hand as talking, not literally, but in a note, if it's too pointed or too directive. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. It was a little too get it done. I could have come at it a little bit differently. So being a lifelong.

And he says, sir, you're being a little too knife hand with that. Now you might remember knife hand as talking, not literally, but in a note, if it's too pointed or too directive. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. It was a little too get it done. It where I could have come at it a little bit differently. So being a learner on this, take the feedback, just like I did from my chief of staff, Woody Clemens. And next time I'm always checking myself, am I being too knife hand? I've taken that one on.

learner on this, take the feedback just like I did from my Chief of Staff, Woody Clemens. And next time I'm always checking myself on my being too knife hand. I'm that one on here lately. I love that phrase. Good job, Woody. That's amazing. John, was there a specific period of your life where you noticed this transition, where you went from this

I love that phrase. Good job, Woody. That's amazing. John, was there a specific period of your life where you noticed this transition, where you went from

aggressive, I think you used the word aggressive, take on the world type personality to the person you are now. Like I, I'll give you an example for me. In my twenties, I had this boss, her name was Catherine, fantastic woman. And she said, Savannah, you're, you know what you're doing, you're smart, but you have to learn how to listen better. Cause I was always

I think he was more aggressive, take on the world type personality to the person you are now. I'll give you an example from me. In my 20s, I had this boss, name was Catherine, fantastic woman. she said, Savannah, you know what you're doing, you're smart, but you have to learn how to listen to her. And I would always try to make them.

tried to make that next statement and that's stuck with me all these years and now I'm sort of training myself to listen better. But for you, was there a period of time, maybe it's early in your career where you saw this shift? It was a few different things. from being an Army officer, think at least as a platoon leader, fit the aggressive, storm the hill kind of thing. But then I became a first line supervisor.

and that's with me all these years. Now I'm training myself to listen better. But for you, was there a period of time, maybe a period of your career where you saw this shift? It was a few different things. from, you know, being an Army officer, think at least as a platoon leader, fit the aggressive, storm the hill kind of thing. But then I became a first line supervisor at National Geospatial Intelligence Agency.

at National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. Yeah. Had 31 direct reports and getting to learn how to be a civilian supervisor, leader, manager. And then the transition really happened later as I became a senior executive at NGA and CIA and working with a very large population of folks to an overhead imagery collection.

had 31 direct reports and getting to learn how to be a civilian supervisor, leader, manager. And then the transition really happened later as I became a senior executive at NGA and CIA and working with a very large population of folks to an overhead imagery collection or analysis and all these different areas and learning that very

or analysis and all these different areas and learning that that that very in some cases when there's certain audiences where you do need to be full of fire and vinegar and all that but more often than not to rally the troops together rally the employees together and i know you've seen this in business yourself it's got to be about influence and motivating the heart and not just trying to have a one-tune sort of

In some cases, when there are certain audiences where you do need to be full of fire and vinegar and all that, but more often than not, to rally the troops together, rally the employees together, and I know you've seen this in business yourself, it's got to be about influence and motivating the heart and not just trying to have a one tune sort of, we're just going to go, go, go in a very military sort of way. And so it really happened, I think in the 20s,

We're just going to go, go, go in a very military sort of way. And so it really happened, I think, in the late 2000s, early 2010s, as I moved up the management ladders at NGA and CIA. But I could tell, and part of it, perhaps, was just maturity, and age. I wasn't 22 years old coming out of here. And also being around a lot of different people from different backgrounds, cultures, parts of the world.

late 2000s, early 2010s, as I moved up the management ladders at NGA and CIA. But I could tell, and part of it perhaps was just maturity too and age. I wasn't 22 years old coming out of here and also being around a lot of different people from different backgrounds, cultures, parts of the world, and just coming out of central Texas here and then going to all the different places I had a chance to go to.

and just coming out of central Texas here and then going to all the different places I had a chance to go to and learning that you have to approach things differently and empathetically. That's probably, it was a trick, but I definitely would say by the 2010s is when I got there. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. You've almost made this full circle back to Texas A

and learning that you have to approach things differently and empathetically. That's probably, was a trick, but I definitely would say by the 2010s is when I got there. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. You've almost made this full circle back at Texas A &M and you've done this amazing for NGA, CIA, DOD, and all these amazing stuff, but I want to take it back even a little bit further. What were you like

And you've done this amazing tour, NGA, CIA, the DOD, and all these amazing stops. But I want to maybe take it back even a little bit further. What were you like as a teenager? What was your background? What were you passionate about? Because the thing I'd like to know is how you took a lot of those lessons when you were a kid and then maybe applied that to who you are now.

as a teenager, what was your background? What were you passionate about? Because the thing I'd like to know is how you took a lot of those lessons when you were a kid and that maybe is why you to be clean right now. Well, thank you for that. I grew up about three hours south of where I'm sitting right now in a very rural area of South Texas. I went to a small high school. We had 60 graduates my senior year.

Thank you

Right. went to a small high school. had 60.

And the school was actually set up by an oil company back in the 1940s because of the employees in this very rural area needed to send their kids somewhere. Very involved in football. was football captain my senior year, senior class president, won a big school. We're very competitive and the athletic competitiveness, Friday Night Lights is a thing here in Texas. I know other states as well.

And the school was actually set up. because of the employees in this room. somewhere very Nice. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

but the football competitiveness between the towns and the districts and everything, it's real. And that really became inculcated in me. Physical fitness, the winning, it matters. But also I had a history teacher who really sparked in me history in international affairs and global issues, which I think served me well later.

had a history teacher who really sparked in me history in international affairs and global issues, which I think served me well later. And also, it made me more empathetic to people who are working the three jobs at the local petrochemical plant, or a lot of my classmates who are probably, as we're talking right now, out on a John Deere tractor. Right. working in the oil field. And later, years later, when I would be at the Pentagon,

And also it made me more empathetic to people who are working the three jobs at the local petrochemical plant or a lot of my classmates who are probably as we're talking right now out on a John Deere tractor or working in the oil field. later years later, when I would be at the Pentagon, when people would make jokes about a million dollar rounding error, I found that wildly offensive. And it's not just for people in Texas. They could be in

when people would make jokes about a million dollar rounding error, I found that wildly offensive. Yeah, it's crazy. people in Texas. They could be in Washington state or Nebraska or Florida or whatever. You name your place. Yeah. They're working their tail off. And we better be damn good stewards of that taxpayer money because a lot of the people I went to high school with did not choose

Washington state or Nebraska or Florida or whatever you name your place that they're working their tail off and We better be damn good stewards of that taxpayer money Because I've a lot of the people I went to high school with were did not choose a college not choose or could not Go to a college education. They're doing great in the trade some of them some did go to college, but that really

not choose or could not go to a college education. They're doing great in the trade, some of them. Some did go to college, but that really put that in my soul there a bit that don't forget where you came from when you're working these big positions with these big titles. Remember where you started. Yeah. What stuck with me. I love that. I love that so much. And, you know, I think it's a reflection of good upbringing, but also the ability for you to

Put that in my soul there a bit, but don't forget where you came from when you're working these big positions with these big titles. Remember where you started. That's what stuck with me.

You know, I think it's. good upbringing, but also the ability for you to go back to those lessons.

go back to those lessons and where you grew up. John, you are what I would categorize in my head and maybe categorizing it incorrectly, but you're this amateur historian, almost librarian of history, and you write a lot about history. What is it about that has intrigued you since you were in high school? How did you foster a lot of that curiosity?

John, you are what I would categorize in my head and maybe categorize incorrectly, but you're this amateur historian, librarian of and you write a lot about history. What is it about that that has intrigued you since you were in high school? Like how did you sort of foster a lot of it? At first, it was the military pieces, primarily, and I don't mean to make this

At first, it was the military pieces, primarily, and I don't mean to make this eccentric on our nation here, American military history. But that was the first part, learning the battles and the things that we've heard about, lot of different media and so on. Later, I really figured out it was about the people, the men and women in history who have done some amazing things, some have done terrible things.

just centric on our nation here, American military history. But that was the first part, learning the battles and the things that we've heard about, a lot of different media and so on. Later, I really figured out it was about the people, the men and women in history who have done some amazing things, some have done terrible things, some have endeavored to be good things, but failed to achieve their goals.

Some have endeavored to be good things but failed to achieve their goals. Some that have been super innovative and solve some things that they didn't expect they would be able to solve. Some who answered a call and you hear that often quoted angle, right person, right place, right time. But I find that very inspirational, but also to look back and see the humanity of it.

some that have been super innovative and solve some things that they didn't expect they would be able to solve, some who answered a call. And you hear that often quoted angle, right person, right place, right time. But I find that very inspirational, but also to look back and see the humanity of it and really internalize that.

and really internalize that and really looking, know, yes, we're going to study the monsters of history to see how we can stop that. You know, the Hitlers and the others who have done terrible things in history. I'm also motivated to read about the folks who were in the right place. And yes, often for me, it's a military context, but Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, the school teacher, become a regimental commander at Gettysburg.

And really looking, yes, we're gonna study the monsters of history to see how we can stop that. The Hitlers and the others who have done terrible things in history. I'm also motivated to read about the folks who were in the right place. And yes, often for me, it's a military context, but Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, a school teacher, had become a regimental commander at Gettysburg, who by his decision to fix bayonets and store down little roundtops,

who by his decision to fix bayonets and store down little round pops probably saved these United States on that hot afternoon in Gettysburg. Wow. Wow. This guy who no one thought was a professional soldier. I find that so wildly inspiring. And I want to pass that on to the students here that they may find themselves in a place and not a battlefield. It could be a boardroom. It could be making a pitch for money. It could be in the, the, the.

probably saved these United States on that hot afternoon at Gettysburg. Wow, this guy who no one thought was a professional soldier. I find that so wildly inspiring. And I don't want to pass that on to the students here that they may find themselves in a place and not a battlefield. It could be a boardroom. It could be making a pitch for money. It could be in the, a DMAG in the Pentagon like you and I have been in something like that, but they're going to have their chance. Find inspiration.

a DMAG in the Pentagon like you and I have been in, something like that, but they're gonna have their chance, find inspiration from those people. So that's why history appeals to me and often it's more complex than the way it's sometimes painted on TV or the movies. You gotta go down a few layers to understand it. Yeah, think the idea of learning from your past to be able to

people. So that's why history appeals to me and often it's more complex than the way it's sometimes painted on TV or the movies. You got to go down a few layers to understand it. Yeah, I think the idea of learning from your past to be able to influence the future that you wanted

Influence the future that you want is so incredibly powerful and I you know in many ways I think the more we could do that now the better of a world we can create And the the question I have for you John is I just listened to this podcast Where they were talking about sort of the the misconception of a lot of these colleges that teach you to be on these one tracks you're either gonna be like a

in many ways, think the more we can do that now, the better of a world we can create. the question I have for you, John, is I did a book which is a podcast where they were talking about sort of the misconception of a lot of these colleges that teach you to be on these one track. You're either going to be like a historian or a librarian.

historian or a librarian, an engineer, whatever it may be. And the argument they were making was instead of it being training kids to think about things in a linear way where when you graduate you will be a doctor, their emphasis was on skills and being able to train students especially with these skills so that when you're jumping around

whatever it may be. the argument they were making was instead of it being training kids to think about things in a linear way where you graduate and you'll be a doctor, their emphasis was on skills and being able to train students especially with some skills so that when you're jumping around, whether you're in the private industry, non-profit academia, you can then apply those.

whether you're in the private industry, nonprofit, academia, you can then apply these skills in very critical ways, very much the same way you've been sort of applying your passion of history. In your position right now as the Dean of Texas A how are you seeing sort of the evolution of institutions like Texas A sort of applying those critical thinking skills to a lot of these kids that are going to college?

critical ways, very much the same way you've been sort of applying your past history. In your position right now as Dean of TechCNM, how are you seeing for the evolution of institutions like TechCNM sort of applying those critical thinking skills to a lot of these kids that are in this college? We definitely are focusing on that at the Bush School where yes, there's the classroom work and we do try to take an interdisciplinary approach in what we're doing here in our college. And I know working with the other colleges across the campus here, whether it's over in engineering or arts and sciences or the business school or elsewhere, trying to get cross pollination on some things. But the biggest thing, one of the best practices, for example, we do here are capstones.

We definitely are focusing on that at the Bush School where yes, there's the classroom work and we do try to take an interdisciplinary approach in what we're doing here in our college. And I know working with the other colleges across the campus here, whether it's over in engineering or arts and sciences or the business school or elsewhere, trying to get cross pollination on some things. But the biggest thing, one of the best practices, for example, we do here are capstone.

for our graduate students where they go to, we call them a client, you could say a customer, but client's word we use. And it can be anything from a combatant command to a national agency. Those are for our international affairs and national security students all the way to a city or county who has a municipal issue and say, give us a really hard problem. Give us something real. And some of the real ones we've done have to do, for example, with the PRCs.

our graduate students where they go to, we call them a client. You could say a customer, but clients are the word we use. And it can be anything from a combatant command to a national agency. Those are for our international affairs and national security students all the way to a city or county who has a municipal issue and say, give us a really hard problem. Give us something real. And some of the real ones we've done have to do, for example, with the PRCs.

economic statecraft and how are they trying to influence the world on that and what military effects could that have? Or what should we be considering about helping a city who has a lot of revenue but is having issues about getting bonds floated for new schools and roads? How do you merge these competing dynamics together? These are real world problems.

economic statecraft and how are they trying to influence the world on that and what military effects could that have? Or what should we be considering about helping a city who has a lot of revenue but is having issues about getting bonds floated for new schools and roads? How do you merge these competing dynamics together? These are real world problems.

and sending our students out to work that. And those are necessarily interdisciplinary because you're not just going to have a direct line of, it's a math problem, we can solve it. And I know you've done this in business in many areas and really getting them to think about the whole scope of it. So I think that is critical to get them to think about it. And if I can add one other thing too, here at the Bush School, we really try to infuse the character piece in this. Our namesake, George H.W. Bush,

and sending our students out to work that. And those are necessarily interdisciplinary because you're not just going to have a direct line of, it's a math problem, we can solve it. And I know you've done this in business in many areas and really getting them to think about the whole scope of it. So I think that is critical to get them to think about it. And if I can add one other thing too, here at the Bush School, we really try to infuse the character piece in this. Our namesake, George H.W. Bush.

He said public service is a noble calling and we don't want to lose that piece of it while they're also looking across the different disciplines. Remember how to be right, how to approach things in the right way. So that's something we try to instill here as well. Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting topic. Like how do you do, how do you see something as soft but also as

he said public service is a noble calling and we don't want to lose that piece of it while they're also looking across the different disciplines. Remember how to be right, how to approach things in the right way. So that's something we try to instill here as well. Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting topic. Like how do you teach something as soft but also as apparent as character and you know, I've been doing a little bit of thinking about this over the years too because the character that you have is one of the first things that people notice about you at work, right? Do you do the things that you say you're gonna do? Do you follow up with the things that you promise you're gonna do? Are you respectful in terms of how you engage with people and the idea of character is not something that is taught in many ways in a structured way at least.

parent-ess character and I've been thinking about this over the years too because the character that you have is one of first things that people notice about you at work, right? Do you do the things that you say you're gonna do? Do you call it a lot of those things? kind of you gonna do? Are you respectful and first of how you engage with people? The idea of character is not something that is taught in many ways and structured way at least.

How are you thinking about that at the Bush School? Especially because the students there are literally the next leaders of the nation, right? They're gonna go out and do these amazing things.

How are you thinking about that at the state school, especially because the students there are literally the next leader in the nation, right? They're gonna go out and do these things. So it is a foundation and we talk to them about, yes, they're gonna have skills. And I've got people here doing cross degrees on things like cyber and language and other areas which are gonna have to be kept up with.

So it is a foundation and we talk to them about, yes, they're gonna have skills. And I've got people here doing cross degrees on things like cyber and language and other areas which are gonna have to be kept up with. I'm preaching to the choir here on technology and so on. think, you know, look at just what all's changed in the past few years with generative AI and where we're heading on quantum and everything else.

preaching to the choir here on technology and so on. think, you know, look at this, what all's changed in the past few years with generative AI and where we're heading on quantum and everything else. But what's going to get them hired a lot of the times and keep them on the job is their character and can they be trusted? Do they have integrity? Do they have the life skills to work as a team, be excellent? Do they have loyalty to the mission? Are they going to

But what's gonna get them hired a lot of the times and keep them on the job is their character and can they be trusted? Do they have integrity? Do they have the life skills to work as a team, be excellent? Do they have loyalty to the mission? Are they going to be good leaders and good followers? All these things that go into character, that's what's gonna be their foundation as they go forward. And so that's what we try to instill in them.

be good leaders and good followers, all these things that go into character, that's what's gonna be their foundation as they go forward. And so that's what we try to instill in them. And their skills are gonna have to be renewed constantly, whether it's in technology or how you do governance or you can't say rest with your laurels. I know you certainly haven't as I look back at your illustrious career, I've had to learn different things going from history to CIO, but the one thing I haven't.

And their skills are going to have to be renewed constantly, whether it's in technology or how you do governance or you can't say rest with your laurels. I know you certainly haven't as you know, I look back at your illustrious career. I've had to learn different things going from history to CIO. But the one thing I haven't tried to ever change is my North Star of who I am.

tried to ever change as my North Star of who I am. And so that is what we really try to do at the Bush School. And I know there are other places that do this too, but the Bush School, we do try to emulate George H.W. Bush, the youngest naval aviator in history when he enlisted at age 18, and really from the Second World War on through when he took the oath to be the 41st President of United States, with the exception of a few gaps in his life, was serving as...

And so that is what we really try to do at the Bush School. And I know if there are other places that do this too, but the Bush School, we do try to emulate George H.W. Bush, youngest naval aviator in history when he enlisted at age 18, and really from the Second World War on through when he took the oath to be the 41st President of United States, with the exception of a few gaps in his life, was serving as a congressman, as...

a congressman as CIA director, as vice president, many other jobs in there. That's what we want our students to know about is services and noble calling. And how do we instill that here? We have speakers come talk to, I had Dana Beasey here about a month and a half ago about how he had gotten the call when he was retired to come work at the then Department of Defense from Secretary Mattis that he owes his country. And then

C.I. directors, vice president, many other jobs in there. That's what we want our students to know about is services and noble calling. And how do we instill that here? We have speakers come talk to you. I Dana Beasey here. Yeah, I that. a month and a half ago about how he had gotten the call when he was retired to come work at the then Department of Defense. Yeah. Secretary Mattis that he owes his country. And then after that,

After that, after he's re-retired, got a call, Boeing needs you. And he's never gonna retire. Well, but what, and even though that's a company he's working at, that's important for our military and the nation. So we wanna instill that in our students that service matters.

after he's re-retired, got a call, Boeing needs you. He's never gonna retire. Well, but what, and even though that's a company he's working at, that's important for our military and the nation. So we wanna instill that in our students that service matters. Yeah, I think service matters exceptionally more now than...

Yeah.

in my opinion, than ever before because of the state of the country and sort of like where we are now. But before we get into maybe diving into that a little bit more, one of the hot things that I'd like to talk about that I'm sure there's going to be a lot of interest in is you were in the White House Situation Room on 9-11. Tell me about that story. How did you get there?

in my opinion, than ever before because of the state of the country and sort of like where we are now. But before we get into maybe diving into that a little bit more, one of the hot things that I'd like to talk about that I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of interest in is you were in the White House situation room on 9-11. Tell me about that story. How did you get there? So, wow, that was... Yeah, pretty darn big experience. So I was a CIA duty officer, the sit room, and it's been rebuilt several times or remodeled. But most people think of a conference room. There is a set of conference rooms in there, but there's also an Ops Center, basically. Now it's evolved a good bit. When I was there in 2000, 2001, it was much smaller than it is now. But a team of intelligence and national security professionals work in there. It's 12 hour shifts.

Yeah. So I was a CIA duty officer of the sit room and it's been re- Most people think of a conference room. There is a set of conference rooms in there, but there's also an op center, basically. Now it's evolved a good bit. When I was there in 2000, 2001, it was much smaller than it is now. But a team of intelligence and national security professionals work in there. It's 12 hour shifts supporting the president and the national security team, all with intelligence and other updates, like a little op center for the White House.

supporting the president and the national security team with intelligence and other updates, like a little law center for the White House. I was on a very good team. I'd been there since August of 2000. And at the time, there were three duty officers, one NSA analyst, and a communicator who's a senior enlisted individual that makes the communications work. And we happened to be on duty on the morning of 9-11.

I was on a very good team. I've been there since August of 2000. And at the time, there were three duty officers, one NSA analyst, and a communicator who's a senior enlisted individual that makes the communication work. And we happened to be on duty on the morning of 9-11. The attacks happened, and this is a much longer story, of course, but our team was close. We had worked together for quite a number of months.

The attacks happened, and this is a much longer story, of course, but our team was close. We had worked together for quite a number of months. And during that summer of 2001, and this has been well reported, all the noise or the traffic going on, we thought for sure there'd be an overseas attack somewhere in the Mideast or elsewhere. And on a quiet Saturday when the president wasn't there or something, we would do a little rehearsals.

And during that summer of 2001, and this has been well reported, all the noise, or the traffic going on, we thought for sure there'd be an overseas attack somewhere. Wow. In the Mideast or elsewhere. And on a quiet Saturday, when the president wasn't there or something, we would do a little rehearsal. OK, an embassy in the Mideast has just been bombed. Go. What do we do? All right, we need to pull up this VTC, video teleconference here. We need to set up.

Okay, an embassy in the mid-east has just been bombed. Go. What do we do? All right, we need to pull up this VTC video teleconference here. We need to set up calls here. We need to get the intelligence on this. Go. How long did that take us? About three minutes. Wow. Okay. And then we'd say, there's been another USS Cole attack. What do we do? All right, we've got to get the Pentagon on. We need to get central command on. We need to figure out, you know, do we get other entities, NORAD, NORTHCOMP?

calls here, we need to get the intelligence on this go. How long did that take us? About three minutes. Wow. Okay. And then we'd say, there's been another USS Cole attack. What do we do? All right, we're get the Pentagon on, we need to get central command on, we need to figure out, you know, do we get get other entities NORAD, NORCOM or NORCOM wasn't there at the time. But anyway, get the different entities all together. And that's what we did with all that. And then

or North Carolina wasn't there at the time. But anyway, get the different entities all together. And that's what we did with all that. And then when the day happened, it was terrible. It was grueling to terrible to watch what we were seeing on the plasma screens there. I was on, I could hear the call when FAA was on with NORAD when they said flight 93 is down.

When the day happened, it was terrible. It was grueling, terrible to watch what we were seeing on the plasma screens there. I was on, I could hear the call when FAA was on with NORAD when they said flight 93 is down. And then the military said, good, they're down, meaning they had landed and the FAA said, no, they're down. I get into thinking about it.

And then the military said, good, they're down, meaning they had landed and no FAA said, no, they're down. I get misty just thinking about it. But what we saw that day was America come together, not only politically or as citizens, but our national security came up in a way that it was so impressive to watch. for all the organs of our national security diplomacy,

But what we saw that day was America come together, not only politically or as citizens, but our national security came up in a way that it was so impressive to watch. And for all the organs of our national security diplomacy, yeah, we took a sucker punch, but the way things came up together on that, I was shocked heading home that night.

Yeah, we took a sucker punch, but the way things came up together on that, I was shocked heading home that night, but I got up at 2 10 a.m. the next morning, was coming in. And, you know, there was a sign for years at the CIA's Counterterrorism Center. I don't know if it's still there, but it said every day of September 12th. If that didn't perfectly capture where all the and and and Savant, you've been an innovator your whole career, but

But I got up at 2 10 a.m. the next morning, was coming in and you know, there was a sign for years at the CIA's Counterterrorism Center. I don't know if it's still there, but it said every day of September 12th. If that didn't perfectly capture where all the, and Savan, you've been an innovator your whole career, but all the bureaucratic red tape, we're going. It's like, oh, we need to sign this in triplicate, it.

all the bureaucratic red tape, we're going, all right? Like, we need to sign this in triplicates, stop it. Here, let's get it going. Technologists, get this going. Contracting officers, go. We gotta go right now. And it was a glimpse of what we can do as a nation when aroused to work together. And that's what I remember about 9-11, but it was, it's something that's seared into my memory.

here let's get it going. Technologists get this going. Contracting officers go. We got to go right now. And it was a glimpse of what we can do as a nation when aroused to work together. And that's what I remember about 9-11. But it was something that seared into my memory. was...

I was honored to be there at that moment, but it was a terrible day in our nation's history that I hope we never repeat, but I could see what we could do as a nation when we came together. Yeah, every day, that gave me good thoughts, just thinking about that. There's so much going on in environment, but...

Honored to be there at that moment, but it was a terrible day in our nation's history that I hope we never repeat But I could see what we could do as a nation when we came together Yeah, gosh every day September 12 like that That gave that gave me goosebumps Just thinking about that What there's so much going on in these? environments, but what was One of the the hardest things for you during that that period of time

one of the hardest things for you during that period of time. What did you learn and what did you learn about yourself? Because I would argue most of the population will never be able to experience a situation like that where you have to not just rally yourself because you know that it burns your breath, but a group of people in a coordinated way to get some fun. And that to me, you know, as...

What did you learn and what did you learn about yourself? Because I would argue there's most of the population will never be able to experience a situation like that where you have to not just rally yourself because you know that you know you're under duress but a group of people in a coordinated way to get things done and that to me you know as horrible as the situation was

horrible situation was, he could tell me things, but what was the hardest thing you did, during that time, and what did you take away from that? Well, not necessarily hard, so I'll tell you one other thing I should have noted, too. We got good at our jobs, and I was an imagery analyst. I looked at Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard. That's what I knew how to do. But getting in the sit room, we had to learn how to not work the technical piece of the communications, but get the right people and

teaches so many things, but what was the hardest thing for you, John, during that time and what do you take away from that? Well, not necessarily hard. So I'll tell you one other thing I should have noted too. We got good at our jobs, right? And I was an imagery analyst. I looked at Saddam Hussein's Republican guard. That's what I knew how to do. But getting in the sit room, we had to learn how to not work the technical piece of the communications, but get the right people in.

in touch and provide succinct updates and not freak out when you have the president on the phone or Dr. Condoleezza Rice. I learned how, and if you held a gun to my head, I don't think I could do it right now, how to conference at the time a Steve phone or Stu3 with a VoIP by some conferencing together. But I was able to do things and be able to manipulate the technology in there in a way that

in touch and provide succinct updates and not freak out when you have the president on the phone or Dr. Condoleezza Rice. I learned how, and if you held the gun to my head, I don't think I could do it right now, how to conference at the time of Steve phone. Wow. Two, three with a boy by some conferencing together. But I was able to do things and be able to manipulate the technology in there in a way that

provided efficiency and saved seconds in a vital time to be able to get people where they needed to be. And on that day, I had, you know, in one ear, Rudy Giuliani's aide. You may see him, pictures of him walking down the street towards ground zero. His aide walking next to him was on the phone with me. And there was a moment of, not levity, but his heavy New York accent and my Texan accent, we were having trouble communicating.

provided efficiency and saved seconds in a vital time to be able to get people where they needed to be. And on that day, I had in one ear Rudy Giuliani's aide. You may see him, pictures of him walking down the street towards ground zero. His aide walking next to him was on the phone with me. And there was a moment of not levity, but his heavy New York accent and my Texan accent. we were having trouble communicating. We were the fighter jets. I'm like, what? You're jets? know, it was that kind of then, the tough thing was my wife, CI officer, she was over at the Washington Navy yard of the building that doesn't exist anymore over there. But her boss came in and said, okay, here's what we know. The twin towers have been hit.

It was a fight of jets. I'm like, you're what? You're jets? You know, it was that kind of thing. then, the toughest thing was my wife, CIA officer, she was over at the Washington Navy Yard at a building that doesn't exist anymore over there. But her boss came in and said, okay, here's what we know. The Twin Towers have been hit. The Pentagon has been hit and the White House has been hit.

Pentagon has been hit and the White House has been hit. And I'm gonna get teary-eyed about this. She fell to the ground, literally fell to the ground crying because her boss forgot that I was at the White House. Now, of course, that didn't come to pass, but I mean, she was, you know, but they helped her up and, you know, she was really in a bad way for a minute. She was able to get a ride home. The teacher, their preschool teacher of our kids who are now 31 and 28 had to take them home.

and I'm gonna get teary-eyed about this. She fell to the ground, literally fell to the ground crying because her boss forgot that I was at the White House. Now, of course, that didn't come to pass, I mean, she was, you know, but they helped her up and, you know, she was really in a bad way for a minute. She was able to get a ride home. The teacher, their preschool teacher of our kids who are now 31 and 28 had to take them home because Liz and I could not get home.

because Liz and I could not get home. Wow. so we picked them up in Manassas that night. The teacher was kind enough to take them to her house because we couldn't get out of the city quick enough. Some other things that are shared in my memory. When I left the White House that day, there was, was about 6.30 PM. That part of the city was cleared out. It was like an alien movie where there was no traffic, no noise.

So we picked them up in Manassas that night. The teacher was kind enough to take them to her house because we couldn't get out of the city quick enough. Some other things that are seared in my memory. When I left the White House that day, there was, it was about 6.30 PM. That part of the city was cleared out. It was like an alien movie where there was no traffic, no noise, but for a park service helicopter hovering near the Washington Monument. I came out and I had my

but for a park service helicopter hovering near the Washington Monument. I came out and I had my White House badge, which I have sitting right over, I can get it if you want to see it, and I came out holding it up above my head because there were tactical teams on the roof, and lot of them knew me, but I all out to the ellipse holding my badge up, getting in my truck, and driving, and I didn't see another car till Falls Church on

White House badge, which I have sitting right over here. I can get it if you want to see it. And I came out holding it up above my head because there were tactical teams on the roof and a lot of them knew me, but I all out to the ellipse, holding my badge up, getting in my truck and driving. And I didn't see another car till Falls Church on 66. But when I crossed the Roosevelt Bridge, I could see the black smoke from the Pentagon. I stopped. There were no cars around me. I stopped and looked out my truck, my driver's side window. And I thought,

66 but when I crossed the Roosevelt Bridge I could see the black smoke from the Pentagon I stopped there were no cars around me. I stopped and looked out my My driver's side window and I thought my god. I'm looking at Pearl Harbor. Yeah, remember this. This is December 7 1941 I'm looking at battleship row right now. Everything is about to change our country has been attacked and It's stuck with me in a way for the next 20 some odd years of the thing

My God, I'm looking at Pearl Harbor. Like, remember this, this is December 7th, 1941. I'm looking at Battleship Row right now. Everything is about to change. Our country has been attacked. And it stuck with me in a way for the next 20 some odd years. And the thing, I'll close this part, because I don't want to ramble too long on this. We did an event for our incoming freshmen here at the Bush School. I have about 1,400 undergraduates.

I'll close this part because I don't want to ramble too long on this. We did an event for our incoming freshmen here at the Bush School. I have about 1,400 undergraduates and several hundred of them are freshmen. They were born in 2007. They have no memory of 9-11. They don't even remember when Osama bin Laden was killed. But I got a round table together to talk to them about this event.

several hundred of them are freshmen. They were born in 2007. They have no memory of 9-11. They don't even remember when Osama Bin Laden was killed. But I got a round table together to talk to them about this event because for them, it's non-HD news footage. They heard about it in high school or whatever, and it's a few pages of a history book. because I have a lot of former Intel officers here at the Bush School.

Because for them, it's non HD news footage. Yeah, they heard about it in high school or whatever. And it's a few pages of a history book. But because I have a lot of former Intel officers here at the Bush School, for them to convey and military officers to convey where they were, what they were doing and what they did in the days after I wanted the students to understand and feel that. Right. That's what I'm trying to do now. Wow.

for them to convey and military officers to convey where they were, what they were doing and what they did in the days after. I wanted the students to understand and feel that. So that's what I'm trying to do now.

That's an amazing story. mean, I still remember where I was when it all happened too. And in many ways, you I think about sort of why I joined public service many years after. that was definitely, you know, one of the reasons why. John, you've worked across multiple presidencies, multiple administrations. There's been so many changes since you started your career in public service.

That's an amazing story. mean, I... And in many ways, I think about why I joined public service many years after. And that was definitely one of the reasons why. John, you've worked across multiple presidents, multiple administrations. There's been so many changes since started your career in public service. What's the storyline for you?

What's the through line for you? What's connecting the dots across federal service for you? And how have you kept that consistent? Well, what connects the dots?

What sort of connecting dots that's brought federal service for you and how have you connected to them? Well, what connects the dots, and I've worked in Republican and Democratic administrations, both as a civil servant and then I'm one of the few people, I was a Trump appointee and a Biden appointee. There's a handful of us. And as you well know from technology, there's not a Republican or Democratic way to do technology. It either works or it doesn't or you're innovating or you're not. There's different...

Yeah.

as you will.

technology.

maybe philosophies that undergirded or organizations, but it either works and is effective or it's not. What connects it for me are patriotic Americans that are wanting to do the right thing, that are, very human, subject to successes, but also human fallibilities, misperceptions, biases, things that can weigh anybody down, but a commitment

maybe philosophies that undergirded our organizations, but it either works and it's effective or it's not. What connects it for me are patriotic Americans that are wanting to do the right thing. They're very human, subject to successes, but also human fallibilities, misperceptions, biases, things that can weigh anybody down, a commitment.

to come in and work late, to come in and come up with solutions we didn't even think about, to spend weekends and days and maybe months or even years at times away from family and missed birthdays and soccer games, and because they're gonna keep the nation safe. And to accuse one side or the other of not loving this nation is a wild disservice. And the thing that...

to come in and work late, to come in and come up with solutions we didn't even think about, to spend weekends and days and maybe months or even years at times away from family and missed birthdays and soccer games. And because they're gonna keep the nation safe. And to accuse one side or the other of not loving this nation is a wild disservice. And the thing that...

Armchair quarterbacking or Sunday morning quarterbacking is one thing to look and go, well, that was obviously the wrong thing to do in the heat of the moment or given the circumstances at the time. It is not so obvious. And so that's another thing in the arc of my career in life is to maybe be a little less judgmental. And it's that Teddy Roosevelt speech about the man in the ring covered in dust and sweat.

Armchair quarterbacking or Sunday morning quarterbacking is one thing to look and go, well, that was obviously the wrong thing to do in the heat of the moment or given the circumstances at the time. It is not so obvious. And so that's another thing in the arc of my career in life is to maybe be a little less judgmental. And it's that Teddy Roosevelt speech about the man in the ring. Covered in dust and sweat.

as opposed to the person who will never know what life is, who is just criticizing from the stands. And that's why I feel a lot in this country, the thing I will give us credit for generally over the arc of our history, we're trying to do the right thing. Do we always get it right? Not always, but I think our heart is in the right place and we can criticize one administration or another, but at the base level, at the human beings doing the pick and shovel work,

as opposed to the person who will never know what life is, who is just criticizing from the stands. And that's where I feel a lot in this country. The thing I will give us credit for generally over the arc of our history, we're trying to do the right thing. Do we always get it right? Not always. But I think our heart is in the right place and we can criticize one administration or another, at the base level, at the human beings doing the pick and shovel work,

They're not coming to work to do damage or to drag the country down. They're doing it because they want to save lives. They want to make things run better. There's some origin story they have, like you just said, about 9-11, about why you got involved in it. So that's been connective tissue for me across all those years.

They're not coming to work to do damage or to drag the country down. They're doing it because they want to save lives. want to make things run better. There's some origin story they have, like you just said, about 9-11, about why you got involved in it. So that's been a connective issue for me across all those years. Yeah, I think there's so many lessons learned there from your experiences. If you had to take the...

Yeah, I think there's so many lessons learned there from your experiences. If you had to take the reasons why you joined either the CIA, NGA, DIG, whatever it may be, and distill it into a couple of words for the future generation, what can that be? What do you want them to away from you?

Reasons why you joined either the CIA, NGA, DOD, whatever it may be, and distill it into a couple words for the future generation, what would that be? What do you want them to take away from public service?

Impact.

Impact.

Bing.

Bing.

not just relevant, but doing something that matters. You know, my daughter went to Christopher Newport University, which is a nice little school, about 5,000 folks down in Newport News. And they talk about one of their mantras is having a life of consequence, having a life of consequence. And I thought there's a lot packed into that. Consequence can be on so many areas across so many fields, but having...

not just relevant, but doing something that matters. You know, my daughter went to Christopher Newport University, which is a nice little school, about 5,000 folks down Newport News. And they talk about one of their mantras is having a life of consequence. wow. Having a life of consequence. And I thought there's a lot packed into that. Consequence can be on so many areas across so many fields, but having...

consequence to what you're doing, making an impact, getting in the ring is what I would say, being willing to take on new challenges. And that's what I tried to do all the way from this kid who was a history major, just, you know, right up the street from here in the Corps of Cadets, a little cocky and arrogant and aggressive to somebody who was leading the largest IT enterprise in the world for a time, working with great people like yourself.

Yeah, absolutely.

That was trying to lead a life of consequence and being able to endeavor to do new things. So that's what I tell the next generation here is make a difference. Whatever you want to do, it can be in social work, it can be in intelligence, it can be in technology, it could be in business. I go down all the fields. It can be in the trades, it can be in the wherever. Be consequential and maybe be willing to get out of your comfort zone.

That was trying to lead a life of consequence and being able to endeavor to do new things. So that's what I tell the next generation here is make a difference. Whatever you want to do, it can be in social work, it can be in intelligence, it be in technology, can be in business. I go down all the fields, it can be in the trades, it can be in the wherever. Be consequential. And maybe be willing to get out of your comfort

I got to tell you, get into technology, I know this is like fish and water stuff for you. I had to really struggle and learn on stuff in terms of DevSecOps or Spectrum or Zero Trust, or I can go down the whole list of things you and I worked on. These did not come natural to me, but it took me time to dedicate my life to learning this along with my family and my faith and everything else, but to lean into this.

I gotta tell get in technology, I know this is like fish and water stuff for you. I had to really struggle and learn on stuff in terms of DevSecOps or Spectrum or Zero Trust, or I can go down the whole list of things you and I worked on. These did not come natural to me, but it took me time to dedicate my life to learning this along with my family and my face and everything else, but to lean into this.

and learn about it. So that's what I would say there.

and learn about it. So that's what I would say there. So I had Anne Duncan, who was the CIO of the Department of Energy and the EPA on a couple of weeks ago. And then we had General Glaviy on. And both of those people I highly respect for many different reasons. But General Glaviy had said something to me about his journey to being in technology and technology leadership within the Marines.

So I had Ken Duncan, who was the CIO of the Department of Energy and EPA on a couple weeks ago. And then we had General Glavy on. And most of those people I highly respect for many different reasons. But General Glavy had said something me about his journey to being in technology and technology leadership within the Marines. And he said the thing that he did to, that helped

He said that the thing that he did consistently that helped them was just shutting up and listening, right? Like going into a room, absorbing sort of the knowledge that's there and being able to be sort of like that lifelong learner. What's your takeaway, John, for how you've come up to speed in technology? Because it's overwhelming at times with how fast these things can move. What's your takeaway there?

Well, I know you're up in the Pacific Northwest, so as Nike would say near where you are, just do it.

Right. I'll tell you what my Just Do It moment was. was at CIA's open source enterprise. OK. Deputy director there. And this was during the heyday of what was called the Intelligence Community Information Technology Enterprise, ICITE. Wow. And there were a series. is.

I'll tell you what my just-do-it moment was. was at CIA's open source enterprise as a deputy director there. And this was during the heyday of what was called the Intelligence Community Information Technology Enterprise, ICITE. And there were a series, this was... consolidation of different cloud technologies and cyber and other stuff. But they needed folks who were in the different operational units to come together and work on different pilot projects. The meetings were all late, you know, 6.30. So no one wanted to go. And I said, I'll go. And I've done some technology stuff with satellites and things, but I didn't know much about cloud. I didn't know much about data. I didn't know much about compute and transport and everything. I said, I'll go.

consolidation of different cloud technologies and cyber and other stuff. But they needed folks who were in the different operational units to come together and work on different pilot projects. The meetings were all late, know, 630. So no one wanted to go. And I said, I'll go. And I've done some technology stuff with satellites and things, but I didn't know much about cloud. I didn't know much about data. I didn't know much about compute and transport. I said, I'll go.

And so I started sitting in these meetings week after week, evening after evening with parts of the interagency of the intelligence community and Department of Defense at the time and so on. And I got smarter and I did kind of do what General Glavy said, listen, but I also came up with some ideas. Like, why don't we have better? I've heard about this cloud technology, which I then learned about. Why don't we have an unclassified cloud for the intelligence community?

And so I started sitting in these meetings week after week, evening after evening with parts of the interagency of the intelligence community and Department of Defense at the time and so on. And I got smarter and I did kind of do what General Glavy said, listen, but I also came up with some ideas. Like, why don't we have better? I've heard about this cloud technology, which I then learned about. Why don't we have an unclassified cloud for the intelligence community?

So we're collecting data once, analyzing it in different buckets and so on and not having to buy it multiple times. And then there was another project that I came up with. We're collecting all this open source data. What if we correlated it to classified information? What could come up with that? Then I had to get smart on what we're doing on the top secret networks and how do we bring this together? And I know you've worked a lot of these kinds of things. You just don't put two pipes together.

So we're collecting data once, analyzing it in different buckets and so on and not having to buy it multiple times. And then there was another project that I came up with. We're collecting all this open source data. What if we correlated it to classified information? What could come up with that? Then I had to get smart on what we're doing on the top secret networks and how do we bring this together? Right. You've worked a lot of these kind of things. You just don't, you know, put two together. I wish it was that easy. And I got pretty good at this with some great help from wonderful engineers.

you know, say a prayer and hope it happens. And I got pretty good at this with some great help from wonderful engineers and data scientists and others. And then I got a call, said, we want you to interview to be the Intelligence Community Chief Information Officer. And I look, CIO? I'm a satellite guy. I've done other things. But and then I went and talked to Senator Dan Coats. He had been named DNI.

And then I got a call, said we want you to.

Yeah, I...

and I.

by President Trump and I sat down and talked with him. I talked to, kind of like we were doing, we talked for about an hour, just about my career. And he called me, he said, John, I want you to do the job. I said, sir, you know, I've not been a CIO. And he essentially said something like, that's why I want you to do it. Cause you've been on the operator user side. And then that made all the difference. And what I'll close with here too, on this part of the story, the first thing I had to do was cancel something very big.

And I talked to, kind of like we doing, we talked for about an hour just about my career and he called me. He said, John, I want you to do the job. I said, sir, you know, I've not been a CIO. And he essentially said something like, that's why I want you to do it. wow. operator user side. Yeah. And then that made all the difference. And what I'll close with here too, on this part of the story, the first thing I had to do was cancel something very big. Now we want to start things. I think of the project you led.

Now we want to start things. I think of the project you led and that you showed me. You know, starting something's cool, but sometimes shutting something down is necessary to open up new pathways. And there was the Intelligence Community Common Desktop Initiative. Good idea. At the time, 17 agencies, you want to be able to go around to Fort Meade or to Fort Belvoir and log on and get your own desktop up there. It wasn't working.

and that you showed me that you're starting something school but sometimes shutting something down is necessary to open up new pathways and there was the intelligence community common desktop initiative good idea at the time 17 agencies you want to be able to go around the for me or to Fort Belvoir and log on and get your own desktop up there it wasn't working and we were hundreds of millions of dollars in the sunk call zone

And we were hundreds of millions of dollars in the sunk cost on this. And there was this, we gotta keep going, we gotta keep going. And I know you know this from your business time. I had to go talk to the leadership and go, we've got to stop this. And that was tough. We had to go to the Hill to talk about it. The industry partners were furious, but by stopping that, it opened up a whole new avenue of a federated architecture, which again, I know you know a lot about, where we did not have to...

And there was this, got to keep going. We got to keep going. And I know you know this, had to go talk to the leadership and go, we've got to stop this. And that was tough. We had to go to the Hill to talk about it. The industry partners were furious, but by stopping that, it opened up a whole new Avenue of a federated architecture, which again, I know you know a lot about where we did not have to homogenize everyone on the same baseline, but some of the agencies would never do.

homogenize everyone on the same baseline, which some of the agencies would never do, but instead have a federated approach where we could talk across the different boundaries and so on, and it worked just fine. And then a couple of years later, when I had to make the decision or recommendation to cancel the Jedi cloud, so we could then move to joint war fighting cloud capability, that was a key lesson on how to do that. So sometimes you got to stop something big.

but instead have a federated approach where we can talk across the different boundaries and so on. And it worked just fine. And then a couple of years later, when I had to make the decision or recommendation to cancel the Jedi cloud, so we could then move to joint war fighting cloud, that was a key lesson on how to do that. So sometimes you got to stop something big to start something big. It takes moral courage though, and it wasn't easy. Yeah, that's one of the things that.

to start something big. takes moral courage though, and it wasn't easy.

fascinated me about the DOD was we had exceptionally smart people everywhere and there were great ideas but the thing that I think that we didn't do a good job of, if I'm to be critical of the organization that we were a part of, is we don't shut things down as fast as we should. And I've always wondered sort of like why...

was we had exceptionally smart people everywhere. And there were great ideas, but things that I think that we didn't do a good job of, I'm going to be critical of the organization that we were part of, is we don't shut things down as fast as we should. And I've always wondered for the voice, why are we so hesitant in so many ways to shut

Are we so hesitant in so many ways to shut things down when we know that it's not effective for the war fighter? John, what do you, know, based on your experience as CIO, like, why do you think that is? How come we are so hesitant to do these things that we all know is probably the right move? And, you know, I've got my own opinions, but I'd love to hear yours. I think that is such a prescient question.

think, John, when you know that it's not a war fighter. John, what do you, based on your experience as CIO, why do you think that is? How come we are so desperate to do these things that we all know it's going to work? And I've got my own opinion, and I don't care yours. I think that is such a prescient question to ask. I think there's a lot of things. I think it's sunk costs, like we just talked about. We're so far in, we've got to keep going.

think there's a lot of things. think it's some costs like we talked about. We're so far in, we gotta keep going when there are times. And then of course, with your private sector background, sometimes you just gotta cut your losses. This was a noble idea, but this isn't the direction we need to go on this. Institutional inertia, it's just we're doing it because we're doing it because we're doing it. That was a World War I.

when there are times, and then of course, with your private sector background, sometimes you just gotta cut your losses and say, this was a noble idea, but this isn't the direction we need to go on this. Institutional inertia, it's just, we're doing it because we're doing it because we're doing it. That was a World War I soldier saying, we're here because we're here because we're They didn't know why they were fighting on the Western Front. They just knew they were there. Back to my history lessons there.

soldiers like we're here because we're here because they don't want to work for a profit they were there back my history left there and then i think there's also different stakeholders and i mean this is not how we're not want to there may be invested in it but not for the full mission success right because well there's someone on the hill that's behind this or our quarterly earnings

And then I think there's also different stakeholders. And I mean this, this is gonna sound worse than I want to, that are maybe invested in it, but not for the full mission success. It's because, well, there's someone on the hill that's behind this or our quarterly earnings are gonna be this. I'm gonna continue to encourage this, even though I know this is not the best thing for the government or the customer on this. And then all these, these...

to this, I'm going to continue to encourage this even though I know this is not the best thing for the government or the customer on this. And then all these forces are pushing on this. So as a CIO or CXO or whatever, he's going to take effort to then say, stop, we're going to pull back because there are a lot of forces that are trying to keep it moving and it becomes almost like a zombie sort of thing that you just can't stop it.

Forces are pushing on this so as a CIO or CXO or whatever he's gonna take effort to then say stop we're gonna pull back because there are a lot of forces that are trying to to keep it moving and it becomes almost like a zombie sort of thing that you just can't stop it and You know, there's a famous business saying from here in Texas a road to Abilene you hear in business schools, which is a

You know, there's a famous business saying from here in Texas, a road to Abilene, you hear in business schools, which is a, is a metaphor for everyone's doing something and going to a place that no one else wants to go to, but they're doing it because they think the other person wants to. didn't know that. That's what happened. Yeah. Roe death. You could find it, I think on YouTube. It's an old business thing I learned years ago.

is a metaphor for everyone's doing something and going to a place that no one else wants to go to, but they're doing it because they think the other person wants to. That's what happened. Yeah. Rodez, you could find it, I think on YouTube. It's an old business thing I learned years ago about a family that didn't want to go to Abilene to get ice cream. They all thought the other family member wanted to do it, but it's come up business metaphor. And it really happens in human dynamics where

about a family that didn't want to go to Abilene to get ice cream. They all thought the other family member wanted to do it, but it's kind of a business metaphor. And it really happens in human dynamics where I thought ANS and the Pentagon wanted to do this. I thought R &E was the, I thought the Department of Navy was the big one pushing this contract. And once you unpack this, you're like, nobody wants Yeah, it's so common. It's so common. The soldiers hate it, the guardians and the space force hate it.

I thought ANS and the Pentagon wanted to do this. I thought R &E was the, well, I thought the Department of Navy was the big one pushing this contract. And once you unpack this, you're like, nobody wanted this. The sailors hate it. The soldiers hate it. The guardians and the space force hate it. Why are we doing this? Just kill it. And we did see that when we were working together, we saw a few things that had to get stopped or a ratcheted back, but it takes courage to do that.

Yeah, yeah, and we did see that when we're working together We saw a few things that had to get stopped or a ratchet in the back But it takes courage. Yeah that and the wherewithal and having bosses that are willing to stick their neck out a little bit too To say I'll take the I'll take the heat on this whole plug, right? Right. Yeah I mean it definitely does take sort of that top-level cover in so many ways To be able to push some of these things through

and the wherewithal and having bosses that are willing to stick their neck out a little bit too to say, I'll take the heat on this, pull the plug on. Yeah, I mean, it definitely does.

able to push some of these things through. And that actually leads me to my next question, which is, you've had the ability to lead some amazing teams over the years. How do you pick the people that are on your team? What are some of the characteristics that you look for in terms of people that are successful, specifically the teams that you're building?

And that actually leads me to my next question, which is you've had the ability to lead some amazing teams over the years. How do you pick the people that is on your team? What are some of the characteristics that you look for in terms of people that can be successful? Specifically, within the teams that you're building. And what are some of the things that you think are potential pitfalls for people that are trying to be leaders that they should avoid? Well, it's really two things I look for. We talked about character. sir, I saw this in you right away. Great heart. Great heart, willingness to work with others, just to be a good human being. But that can't be all. You've got to have technical skill.

And what are some of the things that you think are potential pitfalls for people that are trying to be leaders that they should avoid? Well, it's really two things I look for. We talked about character. And sir, I saw this in you right away. know, great heart, great heart, willingness to work with others, just to be a good human being. But that can't be all. You've got to have technical skill or the skill in your area, you can't just have someone who's just a great person to be around, that helps, but they also have to be competent in their job. But you can't have the competency in the job be the totality of what you're selecting on, because one of the fatal things you can get into as a leader is picking someone who's a kiss up, kick down employee or new hire who manages up very well.

skill in your area. can't just have someone who's just a great person to be around that helps, right? But they also have to be confident in their job. But you can't have the competency in the job be the totality of what you're selecting on. Because one of the fatal things you can get into as a leader is picking someone who's a kiss up, kick down employee or who manages up very well.

and looks like they're doing peachy wonderful, but they treat peers or subordinates terribly and kind of step on them. But it's easy to be wooed, you know, if you're not careful and you've got to be able to ask hard questions. And then when someone else comes to you and says, Hey, boss, this person who looks so good to you on this is really they're taking credit for the team's work or they're throwing somebody under the bus or they're out.

and looks like they're doing peachy wonderful, but they treat peers or subordinates terribly and kind of step on them. But it's easy to be wooed, you know, if you're not careful and you've got to be able to ask hard questions. And then when someone else comes to you and says, Hey boss, this person who looks so good to you on this is really, they're taking credit for the, the team's work or they're throwing somebody under the bus or they're out.

Trashing the organization on social media or whatever it is that maybe you have a blind spot on. That's where problems come in. And then also selecting individuals who are not coming to an organization for the right reason. That's tough to ferret out. That doesn't mean you're looking for forever loyalty. Are you going to be here for 20 years? Who the hell does that now? Nobody. But if they're just coming here to cool their heels to the job they really want comes open.

Trashing the organization on social media or whatever it is that maybe you have a blind spot on that's where problems come in and then also selecting individuals who are not coming to an organization for the right reason That's tough to ferret out. That doesn't mean you're looking for forever loyalty. Are you gonna be here for 20 years? the hell does that? Right? Yeah, nobody but if they're just coming here to cool their heels to the job they really want comes open

Maybe it's a stepping stone, but they need to be honest with you and say, I would like to learn from you, but my real dream is to work at wherever. I've always wanted to be at this larger company or whatever, or work at this more elite organization. Well, just let me know about that. So I guess it's being aware, taking feedback from all different angles. And I think the last thing.

Maybe it's a stepping stone, but they need to be honest with you and say, I would like to learn from you, but my real dream is to work at where I've always wanted to be at this larger company or whatever, or work at this more elite organization. Well, just let me know about that. So I guess it's being aware, taking feedback from all different angles. And I think the last thing.

And this is where you have to compete in your mind against one's unconscious bias, trying to filter out that we all have, you're a football fan, I'm a football fan, or you're from this part of the country or this part of the world. But so don't let that predominate. But you got to trust your gut too. But don't let gut and unconscious bias become one. Gut can be like this person's behavior, I can't put my finger on it.

And this is where you have to compete in your mind against one's unconscious bias, trying to filter out that we all have, you're a football fan, I'm a football fan, or you're from this part of the country or this part of the world. But so don't let that predominate, but you got to trust your gut too. But don't let gut and unconscious bias become one. Gut can be like this person's behavior. I can't put my finger on it.

but it sits wrong with me, the way they're acting. Yeah, spidey senses, there's something not right, but have somebody else check your homework on that. And John, you don't like them because they dress different than you, but they're actually a very competent individual, they're great, but they just, you don't like their accent or there's something that's putting you off there. But sometimes your gut's right. And sometimes your gut can say, they are your,

but it sits wrong with the way they're acting. Yeah, spidey sense is there's something not right, but have somebody else check your homework on that. And John, you don't like them because they dress different than you, but they're actually a very competent individual, they're great, but they just, you you don't like their accent or you don't, there's something that's putting you off there. But sometimes your gut's right. And sometimes your gut can say, they are your...

they're not gonna be a good fit here or they're gonna have very, they're not gonna treat others as you would like to see them treated. So that's the challenge and I've not cracked that code yet other than to get other inputs from a wide array of individuals. That's what I try to do there. Yeah, it's amazing how often my wife does it right versus mine. So I'm leaning on that pretty heavily. I don't know if you do the same I do, very much. man, all right, my friend, last question.

they're not gonna be a good fit here or they're not gonna treat others as you would like to see them treated. So that's the challenge and I've not cracked that code yet other than to get other inputs from a wide array of individuals. That's what I try to do there. Yeah, it's amazing how often my wife's gut is right versus mine. So I'd lean on that pretty heavily. I don't know if you do the same thing. I do. man, all right my friend, last question and I like to ask this of all parents and I know you've got kids but I'm gonna frame it a little bit differently for you. For the students that catch this episode 30 years from now, they're on YouTube or whatever platform they're listening to, that are prospective students of the Texas A Bush School.

And I like to ask this of all parents, and I know you've got kids, but I'm going to frame it a little bit differently for you. For the students that catch this episode 30 years from now, they're on YouTube or whatever platform they're to, that are prospective students of the Texas A &M Bush School, what is the one lesson that you hope they get out of our conversation today?

What is the one lesson that you hope they get out of our conversation today?

that life is a journey on this. really, you're gonna have ups and downs. gonna be, hope another, hope there will not be another 9-11, but our country and our world will go through challenges, whatever that happens to be. Volunteer for things. Go to those late IT sessions where they may want you to stand up a new cloud and you don't even know what a guaranteed minimum buy is. I didn't, I had to learn. Be able to,

that life is a journey on this. really, you're going to have ups and downs. It's going to be.

Go to those late IT sessions where they may want you to stand up and do.

I had to Yeah, be able to develop oneself and realize that your North Star shouldn't change, know, be honest, be a good person, but maybe your personality will evolve over time and just do something bigger than yourself. I would like for them to take away that and that doesn't mean it has to be all super altruistic. Like I I sold my suit and I'm now living, you know, I'm going to donate my time.

develop oneself and realize that your North Star shouldn't change, you know, be honest, be a good person, but maybe your personality will evolve over time and just do something bigger than yourself. That's what I would like for them to take away. And that doesn't mean it has to be all super altruistic. Like I sold my suit and I'm now living and you know, I'm gonna donate my time to, you know, I'm gonna roam the farm fields.

to, you know, I'm going to roam the farm field. Yeah, that's fine. But my point is, it's okay to do well in life. Yeah, but do something bigger than yourself and give back. you know, I do look at what you've done going from industry to the Department of Defense and back to industry. looked at folks like Dana DC and others I respect a lot. I look at George HW Bush, how he led his career between business and service.

That's fine. But my point is, it's okay to do well in life, but do something bigger than yourself and give back. And, you know, I do look at what you've done going from industry to the Department of Defense and back to industry. looked at folks like Dana DC and others I respect a lot. I look at George H.W. Bush, how he led his career between business and service. And that's the kind of thing I want our students and people

And that's the kind of thing I want our students and people watching this and just be, and I keep saying this, be a lifelong learner. That means soak it in along the way. they may, every student I talk to, they may be an international affairs expert. And I may say, I'm going to bump into you in 30 years and you're going to, and I'm going to say, you're a hospital administrator now for the largest hospital in Chicago. And they're going to I'm going go, you wait, you're going to run into somebody. And I'm just using another example. And they're going be.

watching this and just be, and I keep saying this, be a lifelong learner. And that means soak it in along the way. Cause they may, every student I talk to, they may be an international affairs expert. And I may say, I'm going to bump into you in 30 years and you're going to, and I'm going to say, you're a hospital administrator now for the largest hospital in Chicago. And they're going go, I'm going go, you wait, you're going to run into somebody. And I'm just using another example. And they're going to be, Dean Sherman, you'll never guess.

Dean Sherman, you'll never guess. I am now, you know, I'm a healthcare CEO. I gave a briefing and this governor liked it and they got me in touch with the CEO and here I am all these years later. That's what I want them to take away and be joyous when that happens. Yeah, I love that. I love that, John. That's a perfect way to end our segment, my friend. John, I would like to thank you for not just being on this show.

I am now, you know, I'm a healthcare CEO. You know, I gave a briefing and this governor liked it and they got me in touch with the CEO and here I am all these years later. That's what I want them to take away and be joyous when that happens.

end our segment my friend John I thank you for not just being on this show but also being

But also being a supporter of me and my career, you are leading by example and honestly one of the most inspirational people right now, not just at Texas A &M or the DOD, but I think as a citizen of the United States and the world at large. So I just want to say I appreciate you. Thank you so much, my friend. And we will talk very soon. Thank you, sure. All right. We'll talk to you later. We'll talk to you later. Thank you, buddy. All right, bye. Bye. Bye.

not just at XM or the DOD, but I think as a citizen of the United States and the world at large. So I just wanted to say I appreciate you. Thank you so much, my friend. And we will talk very soon. Thank you, sir. All right. We'll talk to you later. Thank you, buddy. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.