She Moved Abroad at 22 With No Plan. Two Decades and Four Countries Later, She's Still Looking for Home.

Welcome to Life Between Titles, I'm your host Savan, and today I've got my new friend, Catherine Gay, who goes by cat. How are you?

That's right, salam. I'm doing well, how are you?

Salaam, good afternoon, good evening, good morning. You and I are on opposite ends of the world. Tell people where you're at right now.

Indeed. I am calling in from Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

That is wild. I think you're the furthest guest I've ever had, which is a great thing. I love it. I love it. Kat, I want to ask you as our opening question a little bit about sort of how you got there. So you had done this trip you from America to Riyadh, but you know, during that time you moved to Spain and you've got all these like different parts of your journey that are

I love that.

Absolutely fantastic. But you had moved to Spain at 22 with this rubber made full of sorority t-shirts. And based on what I've read about you on your Substack and your LinkedIn and all that, like it didn't sound like you had a plan beyond that first year. and now nearly two decades later, right? You're in Riyadh, you've got a husband, you've got kids, you've got this family, and you write about all these things. looking back at that year where you were just like, I don't I've got no plan, how do you how do you assess that? Like how do you think about how that one year turned out?

When I think about just how long ago that was, but also how not long ago that was, and everything that's kind of come after it, it really makes me nostalgic for a time before cell phones, before social media, when you just kind of had to pull up your bootstraps and figure it out for yourself. I moved from I'm from Chicago. I graduated college from the University of Iowa. I knew that I wanted to write, I knew that I wanted to be in the communications field.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Nice.

But I also knew that I wanted to travel. So I moved to Spain as part of a language assistance program. I was working at a rural high school outside of Seville, Spain. The plan was a year. I went, I essentially packed my bags and I went. The sorority t-shirts are no longer operable. They all have holes in them. I let go of my last one on this move. but I moved with my two suitcases, I had an apartment, I had my Spanish roommate, and I said,

Right.

Let's just give it a chance. So I worked for three years in the rural high school. In that time, I met my husband, and I guess the rest is history. you know, it like I said, it makes me nostalgic for a time before social media. It makes me think about how I really had to rely on myself to figure it all out. There was no guidebook. I had a a let's go Spain travel book and kind of an email contact. And that was it. I got on a plane and I left. Nowadays it's it's totally different. And I think the experience between having come over by myself with practically no worldly possessions, no mortgage, no car, just my family back home in the Chicago area to my latest move. And there was actually two moves in between Seville and Riyath. Now I've got two kids in tow. Now I've got my husband and his career.

Yeah.

Yeah, tell me.

my career right now is on the back burner, which I'm sure we'll get into at some point. but because of the wealth of knowledge, and I will say there was not a lot that I can find about Saudi Arabia before I put on a VPN. So I really went into it blind, but knowing that my husband, who's in diplomacy of sorts, we knew what his job entailed. I had a map. I had a vague idea from a former colleague at my last job of what to expect. And

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

And here we are. So two really different sides of the same coin as far as going abroad, but one was pre social media and the other was too much social media.

Right, right, right. I mean at twenty two, like take me back to that time. What if you had to describe to somebody who you never met, namely me, what twenty two year old cat was like, w how would you describe her?

Probably a lot the same as I am now. Always up for an adventure, really resolute, willing to try anything once. I have not tried camel meat, but it's on my list. you know, I have tried camel meat, but I haven't tried like a real-on camel meat. It was tenderized and mixed with filioa, which is a a Spanish noodle dish. but I think a lot of the values and the labels that I had for myself back at 22.

Me neither.

Have stuck on. I'm 40 now. so kind of have lived an entire lifetime in those 18 years. But again, adventurous, stubborn, resolute, open to just about anything, open to people, warm and welcoming. All of those things have stayed true about myself, even amidst all of the changes that I've had, both personally, as a mother, as an employee, and now as as somebody trying to figure out that so-called messy middle.

Yeah. Yeah.

That everybody talks about these days.

Yeah, that messy middle is hard. I mean, like you you've gone through so many things, so many life-changing things. I mean, a move in and of itself is life-changing. A career change is life-changing. Having kids, getting married is life changing. And you you've sort of stacked all these things over the last two decades. you mentioned that, you know, at twenty-two, you're very similar to how you are now. What do you think has changed? about you over those last two decades since you've moved to Spain.

Like everything and nothing. Everything and nothing. I've I think I've I've been pretty self-aware my entire life. And that's coming up in a lot of different ways now that maybe I didn't have the time to stop and think about the person I was, the person I am, the person I'm becoming. things that have changed, of course, is that now I've got two other people to consider. Well, two and a half, if you want to call my husband, to consider in all of my decisions. Whereas

Yeah.

22 year old me would have been like $7 Ryan Ryanair flight. Let's go, let's pack our bags. now it takes a bit more planning, it takes a bit more consideration. not just for their schedules, but also for what it means for them as people. So we're much more intentional, I think, in in how we spend our time, of course. the reason that we moved to Saudi Arabia, apart from for my husband's career in the military and in diplomacy diplomacy.

Yeah.

was that we had been apart for a long time as a family. I had chosen to ground our kids where they had come from, where my husband is from, where I have my in-laws and where I have friends. And once they hit school age, it was really important for me to have them have a sense of home and roots. I moved around a lot as a kid, but if you were to ask me where are you from, it would probably be the last place I lived before I went to college. Even though I'd lived in so many other places before then, but I think all of my formative years were, you know, I I moved abroad in middle school, which is a really terrible time to change homes. which maybe is why I am the way I am as well. so we were living in Seville for five years, six almost six years, I think. And and both my kids had been born there. The youngest was born there and and has only lived there, or is in France and in Riyadh and many places.

Yeah.

Right.

But where was I going with this? The My husband at some point in time was sent back to Madrid and we had to make the choice like, do we want to stay together as a family or do we want to focus on the kids? So I moved down to Seville. We had a house there. I was able to work remotely from my job. It was right before the pandemic. So the pandemic really worked to my favor in that sense. And we were back and forth all the time. And it was tough because my kids were so small. I didn't have my family. My in-laws still worked. all of my friends started to have kids. So all those extra hands kind of disappeared very quickly. And we sat down and my husband and I and thought, what do we need as a family? Because the way that we are each individually going to be happiest is all together. Is that the right move for our family? And how do we do it? as I mentioned, he's in the military. So the choice was either for us to move to Madrid or for us to move abroad.

Right.

Right.

I was like, yala, let's do it. I'm ready. Let's go somewhere else. I don't want to feel stagnant. Same job that I've had for nine years, same place that I've lived all this time, same routine, same people. Like I need out. I need something different. So he put in a bid for Riyadh, and the list dwindled from eight people to three. And because he speaks Arabic, he was a pretty solid choice. So we're here for three, maybe four years.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

he's already had lots of people saying, we need somebody like you with your training in the military and with logistics and all of the fancy stuff that he does. We need we need you here. I don't know what our future holds. It's probably not Riyadh. It's probably Spain, but I think this was a really important leap for us to all take as a family as well, to teach our kids resilience, to teach them the transience as well of of friendships. I think that's something that we go through as adults as well, cycling through different phases.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Different friends, different places, different jobs, et cetera. and of course, the added benefit of the languages, being able to study in one language, learn a few more. And that's how we ended up here after all these times and cycles. But it was me saying, like, yeah, let's go somewhere. I don't care if it's Belgium, I don't care if it's US, I don't care where it is. But Riyadh was a really good ROI for what we were looking for.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a such an amazing story. And you know, Kat, I've been thinking about our conversation over the last couple days and just really trying to pinpoint where there's this there's this dichotomy about your story that highly fascinates me. You know, on one side you've got Kat who in her twenties, maybe in her teen years, very laissez faire approach to life, you know, low overhead.

say that

just in terms of sort of the movement, right? Because most people when they're like in a place, they're in a place. They're not they don't they don't take that leap to to to move locations or jobs or whatnot. And you got, you know, this low responsibility life. You don't have a mortgage, you don't have kids, you don't have a husband. and and then on the other end of that, you now have the opposite where

Sure.

Mm.

You've got all these things, but yet you're still, you know, in this place where you feel like you're not at that last place yet. You're not at that final destination yet. And it's very intriguing to me about how you reconcile that or how we reconcile that as adults as we're going through our 40s, 50s, 60s. And, you know, I really want to understand like, what's your through line? across all of these things because in in my head as I'm reading it as an outsider like it doesn't really make sense but in your head I'm sure like it all gets reconciled some way. Like tell me a little bit more about that.

I wish I knew. I wish I knew. It's it's really hard for me to categorize because I think I've I've transitioned in and out of so many different phases and I mean phases all across the board. for me it's the idea that every day can be an adventure. It's the idea that you don't have to go far from home for it to be an adventure. And I I do think that in my 30s, I didn't have the space. between I mean I I got pregnant with my first, I think at 30. I got married right at 30. We had the kids right away. We'd been together for a long time. I'd been talking to it. And it was I mean just between kids, pandemic move. we moved to France for six months, moved back to Spain. We were in Madrid for a while, back to Sevilla. a lot of the decisions that I made didn't have much to do with me. I played it safe just because of that phase that I was in, right? Like

Right.

Being far away from my family, needing the stability for my family unit, with the kids being small.

Right.

How does it all fit together? I don't know. I don't know. I feel like now that I can step back away, I I've stepped back from paid work kind of, but not really. you know, but I don't have a nine to five job anymore and I've got the time to think and to experiment and to kind of come come to terms with some of the decisions that I've made. Some of the decisions I second guess a lot. Moving abroad in general, even though I think, well, if I didn't move abroad, I wouldn't have my family. That's a big that's a big thing. But like

Yeah.

the choice that I made to come abroad in the first place. What does what is that robbing me of that I might have had back in the US? Is it a career? Is it being closer to my family? Having kids, you know, I I don't know who I would have ended up marrying or who where I would have gone or what I would have done for my career.

Yeah.

So I'm t I'm I'm still trying to piece it all together, I think, and figure out where to go next from here.

Yeah. Take me back a couple years, Kat, as we you know go back to the 90s, maybe early 2000s, what was life for you back then? Just to sort of give the the listeners a little bit of a perspective. what were you reading? What were you listening to? What were you trying to aspire to be at that point in your life?

So are you cut out at which point in my life?

you know, back in when you were in your late teens, early twenties, like what were you aspiring to be? What were what influenced you?

So I went to school to be in communications. I didn't really know what that meant. I took all of the speech, the speech classes in high school, was really fascinated in communication and connecting with people through words, through gestures, through movement. I went to the University of Iowa, as I mentioned. Part of it was a feeling, part of it was also because it's a great writing school. And I switched to journalism. When I Switched to journalism. I added Spanish. Spanish was my best subject in high school. And the funny anecdote there is that my mom I really wanted to study French. I'm a Francophile. I love France. I do speak French now. but my mom said, absolutely not. You need to study Spanish because there are so many Spanish speakers here in Chicago. It'll be great for your career. And then I up and went and moved to Spain and married a Spaniard and have Spanish speaking grandchildren. that's so I was like, sorry, jokes on you.

Mom's always right.

but it at the end of the day, I I was really interested in studying abroad. I was very keen to travel abroad, learn Spanish. I studied for a summer in Valladolid, Spain. It's a place that no one knows about because you actually you actually learn there. Like it's not Granada, it's not Madrid, it's not Bilbao. and I learned I I was speaking with my host family earlier today because the eclipse of summer will pass right over their house. And I was like, hey.

Yeah, where's that?

Mm-hmm.

Gonna be in Spain in August. I'm thinking about bringing the boys. So, like I'm still in touch with these people 20 plus years later. My goal was to move to Europe for a year. And I thought, I don't care if I'm working at a pub in Ireland. I don't care if I'm nanning. I don't care if I'm teaching English. I just really want to go back and I want to have perspective and I want to have stories to then be able to take with me into my journalistic career. I have never worked as a journalist. I've had lots of different jobs, lots of different roles.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But not a single one has been like working as a columnist or a reporter or what have you. I do other things. my two main jobs in Spain have been related to the education field. I worked for nine years as an English language acquisition specialist. That's a fancy way of saying ESL teacher for Spanish kids. so I worked first at the high school, then I moved to a a private school, worked with the babies, teaching them very basic things.

Very cuddly, very tiring. I was glad I was only 25 because I was very tired all the days. and then I moved over to the administrative side. Following that, I went and I worked at an international university in Madrid. I was recruiting students, so I still got to travel, and that was kind of my life blood when I had young kids, was I could escape for four or five days and I could take myself out to dinner and read all the books that I wanted. I have always loved travel stories. I'm an avid reader. I read, I think I'm on book twenty-nine of the year.

Yeah, yeah.

Exactly

I remember very shortly after moving to Spain, I read Frances May's A Year in the World. She's the woman who wrote Under the Tuscan Sun, but one of her other books, and I I have it here somewhere, just not in this my son's room. she talks about the concept of home. And it actually starts out in a village outside of Sevilla where she's describing this place that I've come to know as my home and just talking about how.

yes.

Yeah.

Home isn't necessarily a place, it's a feeling or a person or a state of being. And that's a philosophy that I've carried with me in all of this time, through all of these moves, and through all of the transitions I think in life. I still love my emo music. I still listen to the punk music that I listened to as a teenager. That hasn't I've not outgrown it. It is not a face. My favorite band is a local Chicago band called Lucky Boys Confusion. And I remember the exact place and the exact day I was when I first heard them. It was 4th of July.

What was your favorite what was your favorite band? What was your favorite band?

In Wheaton, Illinois, where I'm from, in my my first boyfriend's car. And he had a green Jeep, Cherokee, something or other. But yeah, no, I the last time I saw him, I was actually pregnant with my second kid. So they're still alive and kicking and still making music, which is awesome. And the last concert I saw, which I think is kind of hilarious because I'm in Saudi Arabia in the middle of a place where music, like Western style music, was banned until a few a years ago.

Right.

I saw Benson Boone and Post Malone in December.

Really?

I love Post Malone. He's such a nice dude. I mean I don't know him personally, but what he crafts on the internet seems like a nice guy.

Are you talking Benson Boone?

Paul Smallone? Yeah.

okay. I knew it from the Spider-Man movies. Because that's the face I'm in. The kids and the Spider-Man. But yeah, I went with some some women who I met here. The first day they were like, you have to get these tickets. It's a huge music festival. It's three days. And I think it cost me 75 or 90 bucks for three days of access. Yeah, I only went one day. I'm old. but it was awesome, and I was like.

I could only do a half a day. You you you made it more days than I did.

But it was it was really cool and the production level was awesome. And I think that's it's such an interesting time to be in Saudi because so many things are changing changing culturally. And obviously, like you see buildings going up that I was marbling the other day. We went on vacation two weeks ago, three weeks ago. And when we came back, you know, maybe two weeks have passed and you see the metro lines have been expanded. And there's a new parking garage and these big you know, they've got the big billboards announcing what they're making, they're gone now. You can actually see the work being started and progressing and it is a very interesting place in a lot of ways.

You know what the the thing that that really intrigues me about all this is the places that you've moved, you know, going from Chicago then to that Spain and now Riyadh and each one of those, physically each one of those is so fantastically different. And especially where you are now with the change in landscape and the influx of It seems like it's an influx of money over the last, let's just say hundred years, right? Like 60 years, whatever that may be. And the way that it has changed the perception of how you see things, material like money, and how how has these different places that you've lived sort of changed how you've approached the things that you find valuable in life? Because I know, you know, even going from

Mm-hmm.

Living in Seattle and then living in Southern California for you know seven years, but also working in DC half the year for the last decade, like each one of those places really gives me a different perspective of of life. For for you, as you've sort of collected all these things like Pokemon, right? All these places, how have they sort of influenced who you are right now?

Mm-hmm.

I will say, and I think it's important to say, that I have not chosen any of these places. I'll explain. So I I grew up in the Chicago area. I'm from the suburbs. My parents are both from the Chicago suburbs. A very Midwestern to my core in a lot of ways. Like I love a Wisconsin Supper Club and a fish fry and being on the lake in the summer. and I I it's obviously colored a lot of my

Mm. Okay.

Personal characteristics as well, right? The way that I am, that I'm very open. when I moved to Spain, the program places you. You give them an idea of where you want to go and they say, All right, we're gonna plop you up and we're gonna put you in this part of Spain. And Spain is so different north to south. So I knew I wanted to be in the southern region because I hadn't really explored it. I also did not want any snow because it does snow in Spain. so I was placed in Seville.

That's

My hope was to be in Granada in the mountains because I don't like snow, but I'd love to snowboard. So I moved to Seville, I met my husband, and then we followed his career most of the time. So when we moved to Madrid, it was because he got moved to Madrid and I happened to get a job right away. So I said, okay, let's go. Like we found out I was pregnant at that point in time. we moved back down to Seville because he moved back down to Seville. We moved to re we moved to France. We lived outside of Lyon for Six months right after the pandemic, probably the happiest part of my lifetime. moved back to Spain, he left Madrid, I stayed in Seville, and then he was sent here for his job. So I haven't actually chosen. And a friend of mine from Chicago who lives in Seville, who we met through our kids were classmates, he said, If you you know, if money weren't an object, if you could decide where to go, do us.

Mm-hmm.

Sorry. If you could decide anywhere to live, where would it be? And I was like

All right.

I don't know, because I just make the best out of it anywhere I go. And I remember announcing I had a blog for a long time. before Substack, I had just like a regular old WordPress WordPress blog. And my my when I announced that I was leaving Seville, some place that seems so intrinsically, intrinsically my place in the world. I said I'm moving to Madrid. I'm so excited. I've kind of gotten tired of living in Seville. I'm ready to further my career. I'm ready for this next phase.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

There was a lot of like, but it's like you are Sevilla and Sevilla is you and this place is, you know, this is so much a part of your personality. And one of my good friends, who was one of my first friends that I met in Sevilla, said, Kat can find community and a home anywhere she goes. So I guess I'll I'll leave it at that. So do they change me? Do they change my perspective? Of course. Of course, but I think I've like I said earlier in our chat that I've always been pretty self aware.

Yeah.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

And that for me is is an important part of the person who I am is just feeling at home anywhere and looking for community.

Yeah. And with that I I want to read to you a couple quotes of things you've written on your Substack. and I think that that's a a good segue in I I don't remember the title of of this where this quote is from, but you talked about grieving the childhood, you know, you thought your kids would have, and you wrote, I quote, What no one tells you about moving abroad at a young age is that you

Okay.

have to consistently grieve the life you imagine you'd had. What specific moment made you sort of pull up that thought and write that down? Or were there s a series of things?

Yeah, and I wrote about it in that post. That post came from a feeling that I had that I put my kids in front of the TV. I was like, I gotta write, I gotta get this out because the day before was my niece's birthday. my sister lives in Florida, she's got two kids. She and I are very close. We've been through a lot, family-wise, the last few years, just with, you know, the typical aging parents, changing jobs, changing roles. so we went to, thank you. I got a water refill for my husband. So we we were chatting and my sister said, you know, it's it's Sienna's sixth birthday, and right now I'm gonna give her the American Girl Dolls. My sister and I grew up in the 90s, we had American Girl dolls, we went to the American Girl doll cafe. My mom, being a good Midwestern bargain shopper, used to go up to Wisconsin and go shop for us over the summer for the like slightly damaged goods.

Right.

Yes. Yes.

So we had everything, like literally everything, and my mom saved it all. So part of it was, you know, this is a I have two boys. So this is a toy that I won't be able to get to share from my childhood that I played with so much with my kids. Like, yes, I can play with Legos and I played soccer, my kids could care less about soccer. They're not Spanish in that sense. but another part of it was grieving our mom, who died two years ago suddenly, because that was something that we did with her. So it brought up a lot of feelings of

Yeah.

Right.

those transitions as well and and having to make peace with the fact that and I'll probably get emotional talking about it that my kids don't get to go to grow up with a grandma. And when we go back to the States, it doesn't feel the same. I expected and my mom was really involved with them. you know, asking about them all the time. She knew all of their friends, even though she couldn't talk to them. She came r often. in fact she died on on April first. She was supposed to come April ninth.

It's okay.

Right.

No, April 9th, April 10th, around there to see us. So like she had a plane ticket. And one of the first things I had to do when I got back to the States was call the airline and cancel her plane ticket. you know, I I expected to have her around for those milestones and to help me through these phases of motherhood. I think she would have been beside herself, like, my god, you're going to Saudi Arabia. my God, Saudi Arabia, what do you go on in the women?

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

But then she would have come here and she would have actually really liked it because it yeah, it's different, but I think she would have been fascinated by everything. So I'm hoping my dad'll come. I'm hoping my sister and her husband will come.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean that that whole that whole thing that you talked about hits home for me so closely because you know, my parents live a mile away and they're my dad's in his almost late eighties, my mom's in her almost late seventies and you know, we moved here to be closer to them specifically. And the the thing about having kids, especially kids that are, you know, going Do that transition to becoming teenagers is you do feel like a lot of times that you want them to like the things you do and you want them to do the things that brought you joy as as a kid. and more times than not, they'll surprise you at the things they do like and the things they don't like that you did. And and vice versa, right? And you know, when you talked about your mom sort of being

Of course.

I don't know if it's surprised or I don't know if it's shocked that you're moving there and then all of a sudden she likes it. Like I feel like my parents are the same way where they're like, why did you move to California? It's gonna be horrible. And then next five days later, they're like, this is not actually not that bad. You know, like this is actually a pretty good thing. the question that I have for you, Kat, is you know, as as you're sort of progressing through with your life in Riyadh right now and you are trying to

Yeah.

you know, create these indelible experiences, not just for yourself but for your family. what are some of the things that sort of anchor you to making sure that your kids sort of understand the importance of the the point in time at which they're at now? Right? Are there certain things as you guys are moving and shifting and doing all these things that that you really sort of like anchor to to to make sure they understand that like this is actually an important thing or this is something that's gonna be important to you later on in life.

I have two very wildly different kids. I have one who my firstborn is a lot like me. He's an empath. He he feels things on a very deep level. he is very vocal about the things that he's going through. So I know he's had a rough year transition wise with friends, with leaving home. Pretty much the only home because we lived in France when he was two and a half, the only home he's really ever known is Sevilla.

Yeah, love it. Love it.

Yeah.

So there.

So it was a big leap. when we found out, we found out right around I think it had just turned nine. and my husband mentioned it at a birthday party to another father. And it was actually no, it wasn't my son's birthday. and I said, We better tell him. We have to tell him now, like we can't think about it anymore. Obviously they've been through a lot between my mom passing away so suddenly too, which he also felt on a very deep level.

Yeah.

being the firstborn grandson. but there were there were so many questions. It was a lot of, well, what's it like? What does it look like? Will I make friends? What's my school gonna be like? And he he makes reference to his school and his friends and his grandparents in Spain a lot. And I think because we've been here now for six months without seeing him too, that's starting to wear on him. So obviously next year we will recalculate and we will maybe take a trip back to Spain somewhere in the middle just for some grounding. On the other hand, I have another kid who just flits off and is very carefree and will oftentimes surprise me with the lessons that he takes without me having to be explicit, like I am with the other one. And that goes for everything from time management and being a good friend to thinking of others, helping out around the house, and realizing that this is a really important stage for them. I know on the flip side that when we go back to Spain and Enbrigue will be.

Right.

Well, almost twelve, eleven, almost twelve. Like it's going to be hard on him too, because there are things that he really likes about living here. And he will be going through the transition of he'll have one more year before high school. So he'll be like technically graduate from the primary years program here, then have one more year of primary school and then go back to to high school after that. So

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

I'm I'm figuring it all out as I go. I think that is something I can say for this move on the whole. And because Enrique's at a stage my my nine year old where he's going through a lot of changes as well, there've been some hard moments. I don't think I prepared him adequately enough. I thought he was more adaptable or more open like I am, since we're so similar in so many ways.

Right. You just never know.

And it and just like knowing that yeah, that friends come and go and friends can change and they change a lot at this stage. And and I wish I had my mom here so I could ask her, like, what would you do in my position? We do call my in laws every single Saturday, 'cause here the the work week starts on Sunday. So we call them on Saturdays after lunch and the kids spend easily an hour and a half on the phone with them. So I think he does get out a lot of his feelings with that grandparent. We do a lot of transitions. We see a lot of Spanish people too. So, you know, we had I mentioned the camel paella of sorts. that was like a big paella thing that a bunch of Spaniards put together. They do it every single year in November and we were invited. we spent a lot of time together as a family as well. Do I need that? Sorry. A notification on my phone. you know, family life. so yeah, Enrique, what's your favorite thing about living in Riyadh? it says it's Swarma.

My that would be my answer as well.

Exactly.

man. I ye gosh, I've got so many things to ask you, but I do want to get back to one last quote that I wrote down. and it's it it it probably actually covers a lot of what you've talked about over the last 15 minutes or so. But the quote is really about the cost of the life that that you chose and then the places that were chosen for you. But you wrote that My choices led me away and I never found a way back. And I found that I found that line to be so profound, especially after having all these conversations with the guests over the on the podcast over the last year. tell me a little bit more about that. Like how did that realization come to be?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

It that's from the same post that you mentioned earlier, if I'm not mistaken. and again, that was I mean, it was April, it was a few months ago, and just really feeling you know, going back over my decisions and everybody talks about the butterfly effect, you know, the every little ripple adds to something. And I think the ripples became a wave and they just swallowed me whole with how I was feeling about about

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

The choices that I made and this life and I think that I I never found my way back to the US. In some ways I don't think that I found my way back yet. Not never, but yet, to being adventurous and to saying yes to everything and

Yeah. What do you think this what do you think what do you think back where do you think back is? Like in your in your head, in your heart, where do you see back being?

The US, I suppose.

Hm.

I mean back and living the I mean that was always the plan and then it was all right, I'm here for one year. I wanna see it through a second. Okay, I like it still, I wanna stay a third. And for so long it was just one more year, one more year, one more year, one more year. And then when my now husband was like, Well, I think we should buy a house together and I was like, Okay. That sounds like that's no longer year by year. How long of a mortgage are we talking? and then you know, and then came the marriage and the kids and and all the rest. So

Yeah.

Right. Right.

We're both very independent people. I mean, I'm taking my kids to the States. I'ma see him for a day in Spain, then he's gotta come back here and I'll stay in Spain so we can see friends and in-laws, et cetera. so I've always made a lot of my own decisions with how to spend my time, how to spend my energy, my money, everything. and sometimes I can feel really lonely. You know, I've got friends who do every single thing with their partner, every single thing with their kids, and that is not me. I think my life looks different than I thought it would just because I've I've entered into a partnership, into a marriage with someone who is from a different place than I am. So our holidays are split, our the our vacations are split, and in some ways the the differences in our in our cultures come through a lot. And again, this is the first time we're living together all together in almost five years.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. I mean it's like i i you know, in in many ways it over five years you can change so drastically and I'm sure the kids have changed pretty drastically as well. what what's been sort of like some of the more challenging parts of of that, like for you specifically, you know, are are there things that you're still getting used to?

So that was a big transition to make too.

Drastically.

With my kids, with my husband, they're gonna show up here.

just all just all just all coming back.

Why don't you go we need water, we're out of water. 'Cause you can't drink the tap water here. So they're going on an excursion to get more water.

Yeah.

That's a good that's a good journey.

Read things. I'm sorry, repeat the question for me.

no, I was just saying, you know, with with with you you all coming back and living t together for the first time, after being apart for five years, what what's that sort of changed about you specifically? the the cat that you are now?

Mm.

Well, it changes our schedules a little bit because when I was parenting during the week by myself, like I was really regimented because that was the only way that I could get through a nine to five job, dropping the kids off before, picking the kids up after, homework, dinner, bed, etcetera. so that's been a positive that I can share some of that load with my husband. Obviously he's the one here working, so like his schedule is always top of the docket. I kind of come towards the bottom, but make really good use of my free time, when my kids are at school and my husband's at work. it's also meant Well, let's see, we don't have like a nanny or house cleaner. So adding those things back in. So we get rid of some things, add others. but of course, because I'm not working, and I mentioned, you know, I've got seven and a half or eight hours every single day for myself. When no one else is around when I get to choose what to do with my free time. If I were working, that would be work time, of course. and I do have some some freelance work I'm doing on the side that I can get done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

During that time, but I'm taking advantage. I learned how to sew. My mom taught home X, so that was a way for me to go through the grieving process and to remember her and learn something useful. I've made a lot of friends. Nothing too deep yet. I think that's part of being here. And and I will say that for most people, Riyadh is a face. Like it's I've met very few people who have lived here eight plus years. Most people make it to three or five years and they're like, I'm done.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

We're good, like we, you know, we made the money that we wanted for a financial cushion. and of course we're getting to a time where our parents need us as well. as as they age and go through health dilemmas and et cetera. so we have a lot of friends leaving this month. And we're very much on the going away party circuit for the rest of the rest of the time that I'm here with the boys.

Right.

But a lot of them are leaving for those reasons. They're like, I just I can't do it anymore, or I want to be closer to home. I want to be closer to my family. and I'm mostly talking about Spaniards because most of my community here are either diplomatic spouses. Spaniards are people I know here in our housing compound. And it's transient. And I have totally lost what you had asked me in the first place. Like what I was talking about my free time. My free time, yeah. So I've also picked up, as I mentioned, some freelance work. So today has been busy.

Yeah.

No, this is that's great. That's great.

I got up, put my kids on the bus. I went and I worked out really quick and did you know, the laundry, washing the dishes from last night, et cetera. and then I went and I subbed at the American school here. So I have a sub roll. They call me all the time because I taught before. I can speak Spanish. I'm doing PE next week for the last week of school, which is apparently water fun days. It does not sound fun to me. That was not communicated to me, but it'll be fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ooh

and then I do essay mentoring for students wanting to go to the US. So I help them write their common app personal statements. I'm gonna be doing some social media for another ed tech company on a freelance basis. So like I'm definitely starting to find other ways to feel like I'm making progress in my career as well. I am not a person, I don't know if you could tell, I'm not a person to sit still. So while I have friends.

I could tell.

Who like some of my former colleagues are like, man, if I got three years to not work, like I'd be reading all the books and I'd learn an instrument and a language and I'd do another master's and I'd travel. Like obviously I can't travel all the time because I have kids who are in school. but I knew that that was not the lifestyle that I would have here. Other people do. That's awesome. That's not me. And I also was like, I just need to sit still and and let the answers come to me. I can't go searching for them because

Yep.

Yeah.

I'm gonna keep going down the wrong path and not figure out exactly what it is that's next.

Yeah. speaking of not knowing what's next, the I can't remember where I made a note about this, but I can't remember where it was from exactly. But you had mentioned going through Instagram, looking at your friends' posts, and having this sting of the the choices you made in some capacity. Do you ever regret that? Are there things as you are sort of passively watching other people's lives through a lens of social media that brings you a certain feeling or feelings.

All the time. All the time. I called Enrique, my firstborn, my FOMO baby. So he would never nap in the stroller. I would take him for walks and he'd be like I wanted to get out of the stroller and grab things and touch things and that that's me too. it is hard. I I feel like I'm in a much different phase of my life than a lot of my friends, not so much back home. Like all of my friends who are my age have kids around my kids this age. And that sucks because I'm so far away and these are people who

Yeah, all the things.

Yeah.

are very close to me with kids who I care about. They care about my kids and I don't get to see especially because my parents moved from Chicago to Colorado five years ago. So when I go home, I don't actually go home. I go to the States, I do all my appointments and all of my shopping at Target at Trader Joe's and all those things, but I don't feel home. It still feels like vacation even when I'm at my sister's house for a month or I'm at my dad's house in Colorado for a month. That on one hand is hard. And it's it's something that I'll never have because now I think I'm past that point of no return with going back to the States. In fact, we considered the States a few years ago, right after my mom died, and I'm glad it didn't work out. It was not the right place, it was not the right time. I know my husband would have been miserable there too, just like he is here. with regards to people in Spain, I was the first of my friends to have a kid.

Mm-hmm.

I was the first of my friends to have a second kid. And then two years later, my friends started having kids. And of course I was between Madrid, Seville, France, Seville again. And and for that reason, I haven't I don't think that I have like that family, like, let's go and travel together, let's go camping, or let's go down to the beach this week, or my kids go to your house to sleep over, and then next week I'll take yours. Like we have so our friendships are spread just so all over the place that

Mm.

I miss having that and I wish I had that. And and it's hard sometimes to watch my friends in Seville who had kids after me have that now when I'm not here. I was always the one being like, guys, could we maybe like meet earlier bedtime? I can't make it at that hour because it's nap time. And my kids are Spanish and and you may have seen memes of like kids, it's like, you know, you grew up Mexican if you were like at a family event sleeping on two chairs. That's very much the case in Spain as well.

Yeah.

And we were pretty lax. Like I was very much like, my sisters, here's our timetable. If it doesn't work, that's your problem, not ours. And I was like, well, let's see if we push back the nap and it brings some food along. because like for we're very social. My husband and I are both pretty social and and we like to be out, we like to be doing things. So so yeah, and I haven't found those people here yet either. My kids have a lot of friends, but you know, and we've got friends on compound, we have the Spanish friends, but

Nie poprzez.

Nobody who you think, all right, we both got here with kids the same age at the same time. We want to explore, we want to do stuff all together. And I will say that traffic in Riyadh is horrendous. It is impossible to get anywhere after a certain time of day because of the traffic. So unless like my husband's got a diplomatic event, once four o'clock rolls around, we're in the house the rest of the day. And that's tough. And I think that's really stunted being able to to have the that sort of a relationship with people.

wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

On all of our close friends are leaving, so that sucks too.

Kat, I wanna spend maybe the last fifteen minutes and talk about the the craft of writing, and and reading. two things that I'm also pretty passionate about. Like you, I'm a communication major at the University of Washington and an English minor. didn't know what I was gonna do with that, but I'm glad I had those skill sets, because they served me very well.

A hundred percent.

For for you as you have all these different jobs, gigs, freelance opportunities, things like that, how have you sort of like used your writing skills or the your communication skills in general to make sure that you're invaluable to your clients and to your your employer, especially where you are right now in the

So back when I was an English teacher, the fact that I was a native English teacher and I had work papers made me the most valuable person in Sivia. I was never without a job. I could move between jobs really easily. and that gave me a lot of power to to say yes and to say no to the right conditions. oftentimes, and I I think I still see this now all these years later, I would go where the money was.

Yeah. Wow.

Yeah.

And always look at what's going to get me the best bang for my book, right? So I had the opportunity when I was working as an English teacher, I had an interview at a company that does apps for kids, like storybooks, songs, et cetera. And they said we really need somebody to do not only the recording and the writing, translating, et cetera, but we need somebody

who was gonna be essentially like a customer service person, kind of a go-between. I don't even remember what the exact position was. but they offered me half of what I was making at the language school I was working.

Mm.

I had a very sweet gay where I worked Monday through Thursday from 245 until 930. And I made what is now considered like, you know, 10 years later. It's been 10 years, yeah. 10 or 12 years later, what like a a family of four could live on. So I was like, nope, even though it sounds like a really cool job, it could lead a lot of places. I need to stay where I can make my mortgage payments. So I stayed in that job for four years. It was really great.

Right.

I enjoyed it a lot, but knew that I was starting to get stagnant. And I was like, all right, now's the time to move on. So when my husband moved to Madrid, my husband is also Enrique. When he knew that he was going to move to Madrid, I started putting out some feelers. And obviously, Madrid is a much different market than Sivia. Madrid is the capital, it's got all the big businesses, but it also has a lot of qualified native English speakers. I was interested in staying some in something adjacent to education.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So I applied to four roles. I got three interviews back before AI. one of those was for a some sort of technology company. And I did three interviews, but they didn't invite me up for an interview in Madrid. I was hired to work as a preschool English language instructor. And I was hired and I was offered a job at St. Louis University. It's an American University of Madrid in the Office of Admissions. When I looked On paper, the roles were really similar, but I was like, now's the time where I can try something different. So I worked at SLU for nine years. Through that time, I also I also worked as the CRM database builder, communications person, data protection. I did a lot of different things. And I I came to call myself the pinch hitter because I could do all of the things that I did as an admissions counselor. I could give the tours, I could

Right.

Right.

give the webinars, I could read applications from practically any country with a little bit of of background work. and I love to travel and I loved to talk to people. And I think I made myself valuable as an English teacher, sorry, as as an admissions counselor, simply because I had been a teacher and I was able to have really good rapport and build trust with students very early on.

Mm-hmm.

When I knew that when I found out I was pregnant with my second, I had already been taking on a lot of the communications. And I said to my boss, here's my five-year plan for our communications. And I called it the ABC plan. And she's like, All right, you have to like go through the process. We're gonna create this position, etc. and I I think a really important part of my personality is that I like to learn and I like to do new things and try new things, as I've mentioned, and

Right.

The dean at the time said, You could tell Kat, we're closing the university and we're becoming a chair making factory. And Kat would be on YouTube like, okay, I'm just gonna check out how to do this. so that's that. Like, I don't have a ton of social media experience, but it just clicked when I talked to to this company. And it's nothing big, but because I have the time to experiment and learn as I go. I'm a

Yeah.

Yeah.

Taskmaster, I can see the big picture, but I'm also very good at kind of weeding through the details. I loved the challenge. And I'm a communicator, I'm a words person, but I really loved the challenge of building our database and kind of reverse engineering it and saying what are the obstacles that students have to complete their applications. Let's start there and let's work backwards to make this easier for them so that they go through the process, right? And then building out all of the different functions to help other people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

On my team. I was like, this isn't about me. I'm not getting a commission for all the students I bring in. Like, how can I make other people's jobs easier on a day-to-day basis? So definitely a team player. And I like what I do. I usually am very good at knowing when it's time to move on or when I'm not learning anything. I was kind of getting to that point at the university where I was like, all right, I did the new communication stream and redid the website. I

Yeah.

Did the CRM thing what's next?

Yeah.

And what's next to Saturday?

Kat what what f what forms of writing bring you joy? What do you enjoy writing? What types?

I actually interviewed myself on Claude last week.

Okay, what did it tell you?

I must say I'm yeah, I I don't like to write with Claude, but I was like, I want you to just you're an outsider, right? And I want you to have a look at my writing between my old blog, Sunshine and Siestas, my Substack. Ask me questions. Here's my body of work, here's stuff I've done. and it was really easy to talk to a machine. It sounds terrible because I love people when I live.

Yeah. Yeah.

Claude will always Claude will always be like, That that is the greatest piece of information. You are so fantastic. Like I'm like, Claude, tell me something bad about myself, please.

Yeah, but i I think it was good because it made me think about my writing. They asked he, she it asked questions about my writing and like what are my go-tos, what are my no-nos. I write with a lot of rich anecdotes, which is why I also help students write their common personal statements. Most of my writing is about myself at the moment because I'm using it as a tool to explore. Saudi's the backbone, right? Because I'm in this new place and the proverbial fish out of water.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Trying to figure out do I wear an Abaya in a taxi or do I not have to? and I don't edit a ton when it's my personal writing. I write, I make sure it's polished enough, and then I hit send and I send it off into the into the multiverse. I hate writing for SEO.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, me too. Yeah.

Absolutely hate it. I understand its worth, especially nowadays with the advent of AI and the AI Google searches. but I write with a lot of humor and a lot of self-awareness and fact check when need to. There's a difference, I think, between how my posts about Saudi culture land when it doesn't have a lot of me in it. And there's a diff a huge difference and much more engagement when I write about myself and the what I'm going through as a woman, as a parent, as a person.

Yeah.

kind of muddling through midlife. Sounds weird to say midlife. I'm twenty eight in my mind.

If you if you had let's just say you had three years without other responsibilities, what and you you had to write in those three years, what would you what would you do? What would you produce?

A book? A hundred percent. My dad's been telling me to write a book for fifteen years. My husband's like, You should sit down and write a book. And it's not about myself.

What type?

What what type of book? Memoir, autobiography, fiction, nonfiction, sci fi. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it would be a memoir. I think it would be a memoir. Like I'm I'm creative to a point, but I don't have any story ideas apart from myself. I had a story idea a long time ago and Fluttered away in the wind.

I don't know, I find a lot of solace in in writing what I've experienced. I think there's a lot of solidarity in it as well, in a lot of ways. oftentimes people will connect with me and say, like you're, you know, your story really resonated with me because I moved abroad at twenty two or I fell in love with Spain, or my husband's from my husband or my wife is from a different culture. And you know, I I wrote I blogged back before blogging became a thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think some of it is timing. Like I I was on Instagram when Instagram started. Well, when it went to Android, I'm not an Apple user. but you know, what was kind of going on in my life when influencers became a thing was I I was a new parent and I didn't want to share my kids on social media. I didn't know how I felt. I felt very alone. And don't know. And I don't know where I want to take my writing in the next few years. I don't know what I want to do with my Substack in the next few years. I would like to keep it free. and write about this country. It it fascinates me in so many ways. I think it's it's a good point of comparison too with what I have experienced as a Western woman and in coming at this point in my life and experiencing a place that is.

Yeah.

changing just as rapidly as I am. It's a good little device, right? From which to write.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean the thing the the thing about writing, just the the craft of it is something that both gives you a little bit of structure to how you process things, but also gives you a way to try to communicate situations, emotions that you may not necessarily know how to do it just if you just internalize it or if you even talked about it. Like I I think, you know, I'm I'm literally in the process of writing a memoir right now. as well. and I don't know if I told you, but it's you know, it's when my family and I immigrated here from the killing fields of Cambodia and then eventually, you know, my work at in in DC at the Pentagon. But you know, the thing about the the writing for me is it's given me the ability to frame questions and the courage to ask questions that I never did growing up to my parents.

Mm-hmm.

to my family, to my kids and all these things. And, you know, I think without that, it's hard to try to really understand, you know, some of the things that give you some haws, that give you some anxiety because you don't really know how to process that. And I was I wrote down, you know, you you you were talking about running out of you had a good idea but it sort of passed and you can write this memoir. And one of the things that stood out to me As we're talking about this, is an author by the name of Ocean Vong. He's a Vietnamese gay author. He wrote a book called Emperor of of Gladness, but it is it is a memoir, but it's also not a memoir. It like takes parts of his life, but it also, you know, overlays this fictitious situation. And I'm wondering for you, if you had to take that same structure of Memoir but not really. Pitch me an idea of what that would look like for a book.

Now I know what it feels like to be one of my students with my essay mentoring. And I'm like, Come on, you've got a good story in there.

Ha ha.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't I don't know. I I I everyone always says to write what you know. I know Spain. I know Spain. I love a sense of place and I think that those details are Part of what makes the story so rich.

I don't know, I I think a lot of truth in there would be from my own experiences between, you know, kind of straddling two countries. I've got one foot kind of in each, not even including Saudi. That's bad.

I don't know, I I like I said, I read a lot and maybe that's my problem. I've got too many ideas floating around in my head.

Okay. To be continued. We'll we'll check back in in five years and see if we can't

Exactly. Exactly. It's it's funny. I actually was at a birthday party maybe a month ago. and I just started talking with some women as we were kind of trying to head out the door and I met a publisher. I had no idea what she did. We just started talking and she's like, yeah, I've seen you on Instagram. Yeah, you have a sub stack, don't you? We should talk. So I'll talk to her and see what she says. 'Cause I guess and it and it's

Yeah, that's fantastic.

You know, when you talk about timing, like so many people are moving now away from the US. They're interested in retiring abroad or living abroad and and kind of their they're still their good years or even coming over with families, and that that didn't exist when I decided to move here. I I think it's even amazing that I knew somebody before I moved to Spain. And we've kind of been in touch over Facebook back in the day. but I I think a lot of the ideas and the ventures I've had, it's just like the timing hasn't been right and maybe now it is. And I've got these two more years to do whatever I'm I'm on a leave of absence for my job. If I go back, cool. And if I don't, something else will come along.

Yeah. Kat, last question for you, my friend. your kids stumble upon our conversation twenty years from now. What do you what do you hope they get out of our conversation today?

I didn't hear the first part of the question, sorry.

Your kids stumble upon our conversation we're having today, twenty years from now, right? Your kids, twenty years from now. what do you hope they get out of our conversation today?

my kids.

I think it's really important, and I've always felt this way that that kids see happy parents. I think it's important that kids also see that there's a a harmony in, you know, that I said, you know, when we go to Asadi, I'm not gonna be working at first. Like it's really important for me to help you guys adjust, to experience all of that with you, to help you with your homework, etc. And now that I am doing some paid work, I know. My nine year old's like, but why do you have to work? You told us you didn't have to. Sure, but like this is enriching. And like I want them to take from this that part of me is doing work that I find interesting and creative, that it gives me a sense of self as well to have to have a part of myself that does paid work, or maybe not paid work, but something that that I find passionate and that I'm learning from as well. You know, worked in education for so long that you talk about being a lifelong learner and and I want that for my kids. I want them to stay curious and to be open to new things and be open to to changes and knowing that that there are cycles in life. Some are awesome, some really suck. And that's just kind of part of the human condition.

Exactly.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Great way to end the show, Kat. I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you staying up late or at least later to record this than most of my guests. And I wish you well. I wish you well in Riyadh or wherever life takes you after.

Thank you.

Right now I'm cat in the kingdom. Maybe I'll be back in the kingdom of Spain at some point, but I'm open for it. I'm open to whatever it is that comes at us.

Alright, fantastic, my friend. You have a good one, and we'll catch you later. See ya.

Thank you. You Shukran.