She Was Ranked 140th in the World at 24. Then She Became a Lawyer. Then She Walked Away From That Too.

Welcome to Work Unscripted, I'm your host, Savan, and today I'm joined by my new friend, Angela Kerrick. Angela, good morning, good evening, good afternoon.

Hello, Savan. Good evening from Berlin, Germany.

That is so far away. How is it in Berlin?

We have a beautiful spring. it's starting to be warm and everything is blossoming and it's really really nice. So I'm very very happy to talk to you in this environment.

Yeah?

I'm very happy to talk to you. Yeah, you know what? You got the memo, you got the black t-shirt necklace memo. So I'm glad we're matching. I like how we coordinated that. Angela, we're gonna talk about so many things today. But before we get started on those things, you've had a lot of different chapters of your life.

I've seen that too.

And I want open it up with a question I ask a lot of my guests that have done many things. But if you were at a party and you met a stranger and you had to describe to the stranger who you are, how would you describe that?

Depends on the party.

Yes, true.

You know, it depends on who is asking in what circumstance, because I never have like an introduction, like a one overarching introduction. I'm I would probably say I'm a business owner now or an entrepreneur. for a while I always introduced myself. I'm Angela and a lawyer and people were like, Okay. It was kind of a downer for a few years.

Yep.

Yes?

Hey.

but if I say that I'm a former professional tennis player, then everybody's like, how interesting. So it depends how interesting I want to be, if I really want to talk or not.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's such a great point. I do wonder, the way you describe yourself sets the tone for the conversation and the things that you want to get out of the conversation. When you were growing up, did you think that that's what it was going to be like, where you're like, okay, I'm going to be a tennis player and I'm going to be famous and people are going to want my autograph? and all those things, like what were you thinking growing up about what you're going to do?

Well, I did dream about it because when yeah, you know, because I was small and I started playing tennis with seven and I grew up in a small town in Romania. And the beautiful thing about that was that if for some reason two of the big Davis Cups, you know, that's when teams play when national teams play against each other in men's tennis, two of

really?

Yeah.

Super famous Davis Cup matches were held in my town. So Romania played against Argentina, which was Guillermo Vilas and Jose Luis Clerc. These are the 80s we're talking about. and then Portugal also played against Romania.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Where there was a a young guy who was super impressive. He was just a little bit older than I. I was 16 at that time. I think he was 18, and he just became a pro. and then the Romanian players, they all got to travel abroad to the West. This was an Eastern European country, Romania. and I was a ball kid.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

And I was watching them train and and r I ran for their autographs and for photos with them and it was kind of cool. And I always thought, well, maybe one day, you know, why not? People do the s children or somebody does the same with me, and then I become a good player, you know. So that was certainly something I've dreamt about. And the you know, going to the West.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Any anything but not East, you know? But obviously we always dream dream much as I dreamt much more than at the end I achieved. so I always hope for more. you never stop, you know, wanting more when you play. But yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. that is such a wild journey. mean, let's maybe start there, Angela. So you were impacted by the influence of tennis very early on. Is that something that your parents instilled in you or how did you even know about it and learn about

So we were in a very small town and my father and my grandfather went to this tennis club. It was just around the corner at our house. And you know, those were the times when kids spent most of their time outside. So I I went to the club in the morning and came back in the evening when it was getting dark. and we spent all days in in the holidays. We were from morning to the evening, we were in that club and

Wow.

this is where my friends were, and we kind of had a second life in this club. and you know, with all generations, with parents, with grandparents, and we did played matches, we had a swimming pool, so it was like a second home, you know. and and sports was very attractive in the communist era because sports was a the equivalent of

Yeah.

the permission to be better than others and it was other you know otherwise socialism presses you to be all the same and do all everything for the community but sports was something where there was a permit permission to be different and to win because they wanted you to win and if you were really good you also gained access to the West and this is why everybody was competing so hard.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Wow, that is incredible. What was Romania like during those years for you? If you had to look back and describe it, what would it be like?

well as a kid I have to say I had a beautiful childhood. we you know we had it was a protected environment, it was a kind of a closed ecosystem, but we were happy. and as kids we did not see all these repressions and you know what was actually going going on in the background. we grew up with the idea that

Yeah.

It it is a given that somebody's listening to your phone and that you are only allowed to say certain things and others not, and we had relatives in other countries, so we had like code talking on the phone. but you know, it was the 80s where everything was analog, we were still dialing those phones, you know. so I did not feel other than a

Yeah.

obviously some some type of repressions because I was Hungarian, so we were a minority in Romania. Those were always a little bit repressed. But otherwise I have to say I had a beautiful childhood, yeah.

and

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. How did your parents get to Romania from Hungary? Like, how long have you guys been there?

well they they they my my grandparents and my parents were born in the same city, but after the First World War the maps were just drawn differently. So the same city became another country overnight. So my grandgrandparent was a general in the Austrian Hungarian monarchy.

Right.

and then they redrew the maps and he joined the Romanian army. so everybody was in the same town since generations, but the countries and the the regimes, the political regimes kept changing.

Wow.

Yeah, it's like, can't you just make up your mind? Let's just stick with something for a while.

You know, it's interesting, for example, my my grandm grandmother, I think she lived through five or six completely different regimes.

Holy smokes! Really?

Mm. Well sh yeah, she was born during the First World War in Austria and Hungary, then it became Romania, then it was a military dictature, then it was a monarchy, then it was another dictature. then they went to Germany and they died in Germany basically in in a democracy.

Yeah.

Yeah, holy smokes. She must have been a strong woman. I mean, to have that much change over time throughout your life.

Yeah.

Yeah, they just go in the flow, you know.

Yeah, yeah, I you on that one. Angela, take me back to tennis then. So this is like your method of escaping or going to the West, as you say. How did you approach tennis? Was that like something that you were consumed by and you wanted to be the best? Because I would imagine there's a lot of kids during that time around your age. wanting to also be the best so they could travel. What was that like trying to be a professional tennis player and training for that as a kid?

So you know very i it was a little bit different than it is now because back then if you were as good as I was and I won like five Romanian championships with 15, I won under 16, under 18 in singles, in doubles, and I basically was the best there. And when we went to the West, there wasn't we didn't even consider whether I should be a pro or not. It was a given.

hard to do.

You know, there was no pros and cons. It was just one way. So, you know, parents today have this hard decision taking do I support my kid through a professional career or do I want my kid to to go to school? So back then we didn't even think about it. So I with 16 I stopped school for two years, but then I went back to school to do my graduation and

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

We.

And I became pro a pro when I when I was in Germany. So and then you just you know you just go with with a flow in Germany. and I also won a German championship, played the Bundesliga, which is their Premier League, so to say, and and then I traveled the world. but it you know.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

From the hindsight, it is a lot of struggle. So a professional career in in in any sport is a lot, a lot of struggle. So if I if I think back, you know, you train and then you every every week you when you play in a tournament, which is almost half of the year at least, you lose. So the question is only when do you lose? Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday?

Yeah. Yeah.

Because then you know, you seldom make it to the final if you're not those top players who you see on on TV. so it's a f it's f it's full of losing and then you have one or two peaks per year, and those are like so intense that you keep wanting more and then you go next year again. But you know, it's not a a life full of happiness and not a fulfilled life. It's

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Mm.

As I see it now from the hindsight, it's a life full of struggles, this professional career. And then the injuries and so on. And you have to sustain yourself, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Did you have a lot of pressure from your family to to excel at the sport?

yeah, I had especially from my father. So my mother not at all. But my father was very forceful and and it was good f for a while, but then he wasn't able to let me go and you know, move a notch up with someone else. He just kept holding on. And that's then a lot of tension, you know, because

Yeah.

Yeah, basically he wanted me to succeed, but not only for myself, but also for the whole family. So you have this responsibility of, I need to play for everybody.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that reminds me and I don't know much about the details, but you know that the Williams sisters Venus and Serena I feel like their stories about their dad being very heavy-handed too and You know, I watched and I read a lot about them because I like to follow tennis myself casually, but it seems like there's You know, when it all works out well and your daughters become champions and one of the best ever in the sport, you're like, okay, that method did work, right? That was the right thing to do. But I would argue that more times than not, that's probably not the right thing to do because you're probably not gonna be the number one player. There's chances are you're probably not even gonna go professional. But for you, like as you were developing,

Mm-hmm.

your tennis game and you had your dad coaching you and being your manager and stuff like that. How did you go about making sure that, you know, the things you were doing were the things you wanted to do, especially as a kid, you know, like a teenager, you're like, I've got all these things I want to do. I want to go hang out with my friends. I want to go on a joy ride or read a book, but you have to play tennis. Like, was there a lot of tension there with your dad and how did that sort of like play out?

Yeah, I mean, you know, this this stuff you miss. I I felt that since I was a kid. So, you know, when there was a school trip or something, I usually didn't go on the school trip. yeah, because I had a tournament or I was training or I was doing something, you know. and I wanted to go on those school trips, you know, and then I couldn't. and then

Yeah.

Really?

you know, coming to Germany, I was alone with my father, so my family was split when we left for one and a half years. And and it was intense, right? So it was intense. I was seventeen, eighteen, you know, I also wanted to do have fun and and you know, go out and so and that was like really difficult with my father. So he wasn't the person who actually let you

Mm-hmm.

develop your own views. So basically I had his views. I was speaking his language. I was speaking his universe of goals, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. Did that. Looking back at it now, now that you've had so many other chapters in your life, looking back at it now, how do you, how do you see those years? Like, how do you look at those years of your life?

The last year, so I I've f I stopped playing with twenty-four. but those last years they were really, really difficult. So they were so difficult that I'm still I still haven't digested them. So I still have parts of those years which are not yet digested. So sometimes I have the feeling that This first part of my life, this 24 years until I played tennis, was one part and the next twenty-four years and the rest of my life, I just actually spent digesting that and reprogramming that, you know. So because it takes a while until you understand the conflict points and what was going on and why it was going on and why it couldn't be different or I don't know. So it takes a while until you

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

have the courage to go back in sometimes I say go back into the locker room, you know, because when you're done with sports, you're actually like really done and you don't want to touch it anymore, you don't want to see it and you run away from it. You don't know it, but you run away. And it took me fifteen something years to be able to go back into the locker room and on court to rewrite what was going on and you know

Yeah.

Right.

understand it, digest it and trying to make it better now for myself. And I see it with a lot of athletes, you know, a lot of swimmers.

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. You and you were, you know, at your peak rating, you told me you were like 160th or 150th or something like that in the world.

Yeah.

Yeah, something yeah. A hundred forty something in the world that was my highest ranking, yeah.

I mean, that is incredible of all the people on the planet. 140 is really, really good. You know, when you hit that peak and you saw that, did that change how you viewed your relationship with tennis and maybe your father? Like, what did that do to you when you got to that point?

Yeah, nothing changed. So basically you hit that and all you like all I was thinking about was hitting top hundred. You know, so you there was always a next it was n never good enough in in it was so you say hundred and forty extraordinary in in the world and I said, my god, I could have been so much better, you know, and

Yeah.

Yeah.

It and and a lot of people think that, so a lot of players think that that you actually could be so much better and for a lot of reasons you couldn't. And I I walked away f with a feeling of not being satisfied with what I have done. yeah.

Yeah. I mean, how hard was that, Angela, when you decided to give up tennis? What did that day look like?

so it takes a while until you until you're able to say, okay, I'm going to stop. it felt it it didn't feel good for a while, but I still didn't know what else to do. You know, it's like when you change careers, it's always the same, right? So and and it's even more difficult because playing playing a sport is is not us just a job, it's

Yeah.

Yeah, that's all you've done in your life, yeah.

My entire identity. So I did not know myself being something else than a tennis player. And I did not I did not know what to be. But you know, this is always a push and a pull. And the push started to be so strong that at least I knew I cannot keep going on. And what I also knew is that I wanted to study.

Right. Right.

Yeah.

But I I didn't know what. and then I took the decision by myself. So I was in in clinch with my father basically, and I took the decision by myself and said, I'm going to stop. And then it took another year until I, you know, honored all my commitments and was able to say, Okay, and this is my last match. And when I played that, that was a huge relief.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

you

Yeah. Wow.

It was a huge relief, yes, that I don't have to do it anymore.

Did you have a plan for you? I know there's certain feelings where you're like, this is it, I'm done with it. But after that, you got to figure out, okay, now that I'm done with it, what am I doing? Like, what was your plan? It was just to go back to school and maybe finish that or what that look like?

Well, I did my graduation in between. So I had that and I had the ability to go to university. And there was a year when I tried to do it in parallel, but it didn't work out. and then when I stopped, I knew I have to go to university. So that was my number one goal because I always thought I need to do my I I just need to have some, you know, some basic understanding of culture, of society, of I have to have knowledge.

Okay.

Right.

And I always felt that that I have a lot to give in terms of intellectually, you know. And and then the question was, what am I doing? And basically, very unlike today, I just opened an almanac, and that's the real truth. I opened an almanac where it was there were like 10,000 and 20,000 famous people, you know, all the politicians, all the worldwide, you know. And then I took Germany.

Right.

Yeah.

and I started just reading down the pages, and I realized that all these big politicians and name and famous people, that so many of them have studied law. And then I thought, well, this this sounds like cool, because you know, look, look how many potential there is. You can be whatever you want to be if you study law. And I didn't know what I want to be. So this was

Mmm.

Okay?

Yeah.

This was a a study I could do where I did not have to take a decision right away, but it opened a huge potential of what I could become. and then it just so happened I was in love with a guy who just studied, started to study law. So I was like, yeah, yeah, this is how my life, you know.

you Right?

So that was it. That was the real reason.

Super random. It's not like today when everything is planned out for the next 10 days and from kindergarten you know which school you're going to go. So it was like pretty random. And and this study had like from the content, it had so much potential, you know. I I could I could understand the entire legal system, the society, how society works. there was philosophy, there was

Yeah.

history about how every t every society was built up and and this is a pretty, pretty hard study, which I didn't know and I didn't even speak the language. So I wasn't even I was living in Munich. yeah, but you know, I've learned German like from hearsa hearsaying or how you say, you know, like I didn't nobody taught me. I didn't know grammar. I just

Yeah, where were you living at this time, Angela? Okay.

You know, I just basically wrote whatever I thought it's fine. And this is how I started study, which is totally insane, like from the hindsight.

Yeah.

I don't know even how you did it. That's incredible.

Yeah, I don't know either, but you know, I know I knew one thing. I knew that I am going to make it. So I was so convinced about myself that I'm going to make it, that I did not care what's going to happen in four years. You know, they kept telling me there's so many exams, eight exams. It's one of the hardest studies in Germany. And I should go here and here and eight exams and whatever. Then I said, just don't talk about the exams. Just give me here my study.

Yeah.

you know, my space, my spot, and let me just do my study. Let me take care of my exams in four years. But it was completely this is when you go kamikaze and you don't know where you're flying. And this is why you can fly because you just don't know. Yeah, this is the harsh truth.

Yeah.

Yeah Right?

Holy smokes. So what did you how did you approach the studying then? Like, did you did you figure out that you needed to find friends that were in that law program to help you? Like, how did you get through that? Because I, I don't know, I don't know of anybody who would try to get their law degree when they don't know the language well. Seems insane to me. Yeah.

Nobody's so insane, right? yeah, well, I I really craved, you know, what you mentioned before, this being together with a group of people which I could not in school the way I wanted. So I really craved that and I started smoking just to make friends, you know, because I thought it's easier if I smoke, you know. So I smoked the hell out of myself just to get friends.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, the smoking circle. Yeah.

And and then I use the dictionary a lot and basically I I I was writing almost you know everything by hand, whatever I've heard I was writing. I'm still writing, I still have a lot of notebooks, I still writing by hand every meeting I go with someone. I always write because that just goes into my memory so much easier. And then I was learning.

Right?

I think double the amount of what the others learned just to barely make it. But it improves, right? It improves. And my first exam was really nice. It was with one of the most famous constitutional scholars in Germany. And I scored really well. And it was about political philosophy. And coming from tennis, you know, getting a good grade in political philosophy in German, I thought like, okay, nothing can stop me after this.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. Like, what, do you remember what, what, that was? Like, what is the political philosophy that they, that they, that they taught you there that you had to take a test on? I don't even know what that would look like.

Ha ha ha.

yeah, of course. So it's like the history over time of how people imagine that the society works. It's just like John Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, John Rawls, Kant, Hegel. So basically they go through the history of philosophy and all of them have one part of the theory which is about, you know, how society works based on their basic ther theories, you know.

Yeah

Yeah.

And the entire German constitution is built on Kant's theory. yes, so it's the the human right, you know, the imperative is the human right, and out going out from there they build so the we had like an exam where we knew there were like, I don't know, a dozen of philosophers whose theories are going to be relevant.

Right.

Categorical Imperatives?

Mm-hmm.

So I learned them by heart, you know.

Wow, that's incredible. I love that stuff, by the way, as an aside, like, you know, social contract, John Locke, like all that stuff. It's super interesting to me. Super interesting to me. So, so you got your law degree, I would imagine, right? You did it, you passed. How did you feel after you got that done? Do you feel like you have now taken a step towards?

Exactly.

Yeah, I got it.

what you really want to be after tennis or what did that look like?

that was my law degree was a huge disappointment because I did not get the grade I wanted to get. and grades are really really important if you want to have a good career. And I did not hit the minimum grade and I was furious. I was furious. and I was actually I thought

Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

my life has ended because I thought if I don't get that top grade, it's basically nothing else I can do. So it was like all or nothing, you know. but then I I had an an incredible supporter in one of the professors who allowed me to do do a PhD and he's he was one of the most famous constitutional scholars in Germany. And and then despite my grade I

. Really? Yeah.

Have written a PhD in constitutional law about constitutional courts in Eastern Europe after 1990, so now after the Iron Curtain fall fell in 1990, these East European countries has have created constitutional courts to speed up becoming a rule of law state. And and then

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right. Right.

you know, they didn't build it up from zero, but they borrowed from the American Constitutional Court, from the French Constitutional Court, from the German Constitutional Court, and basically created within a very short short period of time. They have created a very rich jurisprudence on constitutional questions. And this is what I've written it about, and it took me a few years, and that was a very interesting journey as well.

Mm-hmm.

And then we have another two years of study. So we have a practical study. Then to become a fully licensed lawyer you need to do six years.

Six years? Wow, that's like getting a doctor's degree. That's a long time.

Yeah. So I I tell you it's a really hard study. So it's it's one of the toughest studies beside medicine. and then I I I I did my second exam and that was disappointing as well. So I actually did not hit the mark in both exams.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Wow. How did you rebound from that? Like, mentally, I'm sure you're just fried by this point,

I was I was destroyed. So I was like, my god, there is after all these years, and I'm here now, and I I I I can do nothing. That's what I thought. But then, but then, you know, I I applied for a lot of law firms, and none of them, like basically 20 or so, none of them accepted me. And I I said to my then boyfriend.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, this is going nowhere. I don't even know what to do, you know. So my minimum level sank into you know in into the cellar. But then I said to him, there is one one workaround. So these grades are like the holy grail, you know. There is one workaround around these grades is if for whatever reason I make it to be accepted.

Right?

Yeah.

Right?

in the top law firms, not in all the rest, but in the top four law firms of the country. Because they are big, they need a lot of lawyers, and they they say they look at the grades, but then I realized they may not.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

And then it just so happened I interviewed a really nice guy and he invited me to to the one of these biggest law firms as an interview and I got the job. So w with my grades, I got admitted in a top law firm.

huh. Wow.

How did you know that they didn't look at or scrutinize your grades as much at the top law firms? Is that just, you know? Okay, I love that.

I didn't, I tried it out.

So I just went like I gave him my CV and I didn't even talk about my grades. I just talked about why I want to work there. And you know

Ugh.

Did the question of it ever come up?

Yes, you know, the interesting thing is the guy who hired me or who opened the door for me, I met him like two years ago. This is this is we are now we are like fifty sixteen sixteen years after we met. We meet again.

Yeah.

okay.

We meet again at an event and I say to him, you know, there's something I really need to tell you, because I I really feel like telling it, that you know, that thanks to you, my life and my entire career has had a very different type of form compared to what it would have been if you don't if you don't admit me.

Right?

And then he said, I remember that you did not have the grades, so he knew it until today.

wow.

And he said to me, and you know why I invited you to why I still invited you to interview because I did not have the grades either.

wow.

And somebody invited me. Yes. And then

That's amazing.

What do you think it was about you that he was drawn to from a professional perspective? Because it takes a lot to trust. I see.

it was sports. It was sports. It was sports. Because you know, the the the irony of it is when we met now two or two three years ago, he was quitting law firm as well and he became a triathlon tra coach. And I I quit the law firm to become a mental trainer and coach and whatever.

And he actually went out and he is a sports coach. Now he's a triathlon coach and he is doing triathlon and that that was the point on my CV that actually made him change his or or give me this chance.

Mm, mm, that's so interesting. Tell me about your time at the law firm. So you got hired at this big, one of the biggest law firms there. I'm sure that was very stressful. What was that like for you going from a professional tennis player with your dad around the world? Now you're in an office doing the law. That couldn't be more different, right? In terms of the work you do every day.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you would think so, right? So I went there. I went there and that was when I was on top of the world because I basically managed with those grades to land this in this top law firm. And ironically I realized very quickly so I had no clue, but I came from constitutional law. Now I go into into finance one year before the financial crisis in two thousand and eight. So we do deals until two to three in the night, come back at eight in the morning, you know, that culture of 80 hours a week and so on. And no questions. And I went in there and I was, despite the fact that I had no clue of what I'm doing, but I was so good.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Right?

Mmm.

Because this pressure environment was something where I was striving. So basically when everybody was tired, I was just gearing up. When nobody could do it anymore, I was just like, okay, this was the warm-up, let's go, you know? and I was taking stuff on, and people said, okay, she's she's overestimating herself or something. But I was actually taking stuff on because I liked it. And I was

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

thriving in this I I it was it was absolutely fantastic. And then came the financial crisis. And the three years after the financial crisis were the the how do you say the pinnacle of my intellectual development because I went in in one of the biggest restructuring in Europe. We restructure like a twelve billion restructuring, where I was quite junior, but for different reasons, very quickly I became the front on the fronting end of this transaction. And we had a hundred plus lawyers on this transaction.

Yeah.

But I have some b I had somebody who basically lifted my brain up and my self confidence into heights I didn't know exist.

Yeah?

And and those were years where I was working hundred hour weeks and I was thriving.

Right? Yeah, you're focused. You're focused on it.

my god, I was like w I was like you would say killing it, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the Angela, you know, there's certain things that excite me about, you know, my previous life or my current life and my previous life. I built software, right? Like I built code and stuff and I shipped it and people use it. And the thing about that that's exciting to me is the minute it goes live and somebody uses it and they're like, this is great. I love this thing, it helps me. That feeling to me is very similar to like getting, shooting a three point shot in basketball or hitting an ace in tennis. Like you get that same sort of feeling. What is that feeling like at this law firm for you? How do you reinvigorate yourself and keep that train going because you need those wins, right, to keep going. But what is that like? What does that look like?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so I was full of wins basically from from the first day, you know, when you actually think I have no clue. Every day I was learning and I was learning so fast and people were so busy that I had to figure out by myself so many things that I had like nobody taking care of me. So I was just working door to door to door, asking people. I was client-facing from the first moment on, and those were like

Yeah.

Yeah.

wow moments, you know, every day I had some wow moment. And then, you know, when we close the transaction. So yeah, these are the biggest hedge funds and stuff like that. Yeah. Those is the leverage finance years, you know, before the financial crisis, we did all these bonds and everything that crashed was basically built in our offices in terms of how it worked.

Yeah. And your clients were probably big clients too, right? Like they're probably like big time people. Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

And you know, bit being on the forefront of a market. and building stuff and closing one or two transactions per week.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That feels like you are on a IV adrenaline shots. This is how it feels. So you're you're you're basically living on adrenaline. and whether that's you know winning arguments against your counterpart, closing a deal, shipping out the contract you didn't think you make it before midnight and you still did.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

it was, you know, so many people worked so hard and that there was a community. We were eating pizzas at midnight and stuff like that. But it was fun. So I, you know, that was for me that was such a beautiful time to look back in my l legal career. It was really, really nice.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, tell me, so I see a lot of, I see a lot of parallels here. So you were ranked 140th, you walked away from tennis, you then start at the bottom of your legal career. You're now working your way back up and now you're killing it in your legal career. Tell me about... What inspired you to then make the next change? What were the circumstances? What did that look like? Because one could look at it, if you're an outsider looking back in, you could be like, boy, she's gonna retire being a lawyer and maybe running her own practice and making a ton of money and hiring a lot of people and being on a boat, right? That would be what they would think, but what did that look like in reality?

so in reality, this guy who supported me left the firm and then I I was s I found myself in this carousel of politics.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, where it's no longer relevant what you do and how good you do it, but it's more relevant of whose interests are are you serving and who you belong to and where that person is in their career. Are you a threat to others or not? this hierarch hierarchy is playing a role.

Mm, I hate that.

And the markets, at least in in that firm, after Wise or five years later, started to go down. So, you know, in order to make partner, you actually need a growing business or you need partners retiring because they just share profits. And and the you know, the market in that firm just went down. So it became apparent that I can't make it there in that practice.

Yeah. Yeah.

Then I I f I felt that, but I also felt, which was really interesting because I kept asking all the partners is how do you make it for fifteen to twenty years in a career like this? Because you know, after year eight or so, you know most of the documents, you know most of the players in the market, you know most of the market moves.

Mm-hmm.

And it becomes boring, you know. you start you start thinking, okay, so that excitement, the adrenaline is not so much there, you know. then they don't let you go out and take your own clients. you're you're suddenly in this carousel of politics and control, and whose client is it and whose isn't. You know, I just read a newspaper today about

All right.

Right.

Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs you know having a battle of who is leading the IPO of star SpaceX, right? But that's like rivalry of personalities in the background going on and that's so, so I don't know, it's so it's so dirty what's going on in the background, you know? It's not it nothing of of what's going on is fair.

Right, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I can see that.

Yeah, and and then I I I some I somehow felt that I can't get old in this environment. so I took the first chance and I did an MBA because the firm has supported it. And then I did this MBA in in Kellogg, Kellogg Business School and WAGU, which is the German equivalent, or the first business school in Germany. And that was a huge

Right.

and

success story for myself because I was like wow so I applied fifth month pregnant I was older so I was 40 41 when I went to the business school and I applied fifth month pregnant and I started a program ninth month pregnant.

Yeah, tell me.

How old were you, Angelo? When you would, when you would, Yeah?

Okay, okay.

You applied when you were, you applied when you were, was there any part of you that said, well, maybe let's just wait until I have the baby and might be a little bit easier or was that not even an option?

Yeah.

No, it's you know it's more subtle because I knew time is running out, so I have to take the decision at the firm. And this was the first offer the firm firm did. And then I said, okay, so I can't take the decision by myself. Why don't I just apply and just cross the bridge when I know whether they accept me or not? you know, so I can't debate with myself if I don't even know if I get accepted.

Yeah.

So I went all the way, I did the application, I did everything, and I went to the interview and said, Okay, let's play the cards and let's see if they if I get accepted. And if I don't, then we know it. But if I do, I can still take the decision. And they did. and and then I said, We it's because it's never your own decision, it's a family decision. And I said to my husband, look, the pregnancy was

Yes.

Right.

quite straightforward there but there was a big complication in it so I did not know where this is going. and then I said look as long as the kid is healthy and as long as we manage I just keep going and if we see that it doesn't then we just take a pause.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And so off we went. I did the first module. I delivered my beautiful baby go. I paused the module and I went back. and then we traveled together. And it was nice. It was a it's a it was an incredible two years, like incredible, which like opened up this entire universe of what you could be if you're not a lawyer.

Yeah.

Mmm, you're right, right, right.

Because remember the almanac. I had no idea what I could be. Now I was a lawyer, a shot lawyer, you know, and I was thinking what else I can do and I had no imagination, zero. So I

Right

Yeah. Did your parents ever tell you about things that you could do when you were older? Like options or no?

No, no, no. So off I went, I did the MBA. I s I seen a huge a huge number of different universes which I didn't know exist. And and then the end, you know, I took the decision I can't stay at that firm. And I and I was I was commuting for ten.

Yeah.

ten years between Frankfurt and Berlin because I worked in Frankfurt and my my then boyfriend and now husband worked in Berlin. So for ten years we went back and forth.

Okay. How far is that? don't know how far that is.

it's like three hundred fifty miles or something.

Oh, okay, I thought it was like a 45 minute drive. That is not 45 minute drive.

No, it's like a four hour it's a six hour drive and four and a half hours per train. So we did that Friday to Monday. So and then I said, okay, now now it's time to be happy. So I go back to Berlin and I accepted a partnership in Berlin because it was given to me and because I didn't know better what else to do. But at that time I already said, you know.

Yeah. smokes.

Right?

I I'm going to try it, I'm going to go full in and try it. But if it doesn't work out, then it's just a stepping stone.

Right.

And gradually it became a stepping stone. So I really tried and I gave everything I could. But you know, this feeling that I can't do this until my retirement kept coming back.

Mm-hmm.

and you know, job the type of jobs always changes depending on what platform you're working on and so on. and then I, you know, went back to what I've learned at the MBA and connected to those people and started building a startup in the background in parallel. after I've built a health and well-being program as an intrapreneur, I built it for the firm. They didn't really want to have it.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Right.

So then I said, Why don't I just put it into technology and build it then for myself? And I started doing that. And that was my exit ticket basically f for myself.

Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did you what about entrepreneurship sort of called to you during that time? I mean, you've invested so much time being a lawyer, getting the degree, your MBA, getting the degree, working at a big company. Oh, I apologize. But what about it? What about entrepreneurship called to you? Was there was it? the energy or the idea or what was that like?

There are a number of things. So first, it occurred to me that I'm supporting a lot of big companies and businesses and I am helping them to build their business. And I was I was having the feeling I'm building somebody else's businesses. And I'm not building mine.

Mm-hmm.

I see. Not yours. Yeah.

Because I I do a contract and five years later it's refinance or something and then it's gone. And there's nothing lasting that I'm building. You know, so that was a that was a disturbing feeling. then it was this

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

d dullness, you know, I was bored with what I was doing, and I didn't I I just tried to do it on so many ways to, you know, make it more interesting. But I figured I can't do that for 15 years. Then I also seen that the way the platform was structured, there was no way for me to grow or to develop my business. So it was kind of a this is it, which didn't felt good feel good.

Right. Right.

Yeah.

And then it you know then this it was this feeling of I have learned so much in my life. I have so much information in my head and nobody can get access to it and nobody can use it. So it was this feeling that I really need to start putting out content because otherwise I'm going to this grave. And I take everything I know to the grave because I just don't know how to put it out. So it was this, you know, huge urge of creativity and the ability to to put something out there so that people can benefit of all this huge amount of knowledge that I was accumulating and not using. So you know, this was the bouquet which then told me, okay, entrepreneurship I can

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So basically was looking for a container where I can put everything out of my brain, you know, and an app about health and well-being and movement and measurement of finance, everything was connected. It was a tool, you know, which you measured how people are feeling and you correlated it with the PL of the companies. Still makes sense, but I was not able to build it. I failed in building it.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, doing a startup so hard, I failed at so many startups myself. And there's so many reasons why I could fail. There's more reasons why I could fail than it could succeed in some ways. Angela, it sounds like, you know, at this point in your life, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like this is the first time you're doing something for yourself, where you are investing back in yourself in some way. Talk to me about

Yeah.

sort of like what that felt like to commit back to yourself and do something that you wanted to do on your own terms versus doing tennis for your father or joining a law firm and helping them build that business or the NBA and you know all those things that may be for somebody else. How did you get the courage to pull the trigger and say okay I'm gonna do this for me and nobody else?

Again, I w you know what what amazes me how you like with one hour talk with me can reflect on what actually happened with me much better than I did for myself. So it took me a few years to understand what you know, this two two sentence summary. it took me a few years to put my story together like this from the hindsight. Actually I'm building a talk with what you have just said.

That's hard.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, amazing.

which is basically you look at my life, the first set of the tennis match would be the tennis career, where I actually played, but I realized I'm playing for my father, I don't play for myself. So I lose the first set, right? I go into I I think some b something needs to change. I go into the law firm, everything goes according to plan. I'm, you know, rising, I'm doing everything until I realize again, I'm not playing for myself. I'm just playing for someone else's.

right. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

money and teams and something, you know. So I lose the second set as well. And then I think to myself, okay, now you have to do it for yourself. Then I take a took a year until I re until I learned how I can do it for myself. And by accident I just wrote a book with my or not by accident, God knows.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

By accident. That's a good accident.

By accident or not, I don't know. I wrote a book with one of my former tennis coaches and it's called Winning Inside. So which is about the mental side of the sports and what athletes use and how you can transfer that into sports. But I realized that's the technical part, but I need to reflect it on my life. So

Mm-hmm.

What is my story of winning inside and winning outside? You know, winning outside being going after the trophy and winning inside being your inner wins. So I went off and did some inner wins. I learned how to do it. I l I, you know, made peace of leaving the trophy aside for a while, not going for it, but trying to. build what I think that makes me happy and accepting things are they are. That was the hardest part. Accepting and saying, you know, this is it. And if nothing else happens, this is good enough.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And COVID was for me, COVID was the time when when I came to myself or I accepted myself in the most beautiful way because I did not need to go out. You know, that isolation that was for me a paradise. May not be for other people, but for me it was one of the best times in my life. and

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then I realized, okay, I can't just do winning just for myself. I kind of need some outside goals. And this is when you play in the fourth set or a fifth set or whatever set you play, when you feel that just going after an outer title, an outer win. As such is not bad, provided that you also have your inner map of success. Right? Because if you just go into my tennis career and think I need to be top 100 and I'm not, then basically I think and I finish my career by thinking that I was nobody. So you either are top 100 or top 10, and the next one wants to be top three, you know, or everybody wants to be top something.

Right?

Hmm

And if you don't hit it, then you're basically nobody because it's either or.

Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

also in the law firm, it it's either your partner or top partner or whatever partner or you're nothing.

Right.

Unless you have, you know, a like a a city living beneath this trophy, which when you don't get a trophy, you just go out in the city and feel yourself good. Because it's beautiful, because you build it for yourself.

Yeah. Yeah.

Now, the difficult thing is that these outer trophies, and they are all super visible and tangible, and you know, everybody wants to have them. Everybody knows what's number one and top ten and hundred and forty and whatever. Everybody knows it. Because it's like something, a number or a a time or something you need to hit. Now, if I ask you what about winning for yourself, defining success on your own terms.

Right?

But the problem with that is, and this is why so many of us struggle for such a long time, is that there is no map

Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

Nobody tells you what that means, you know. Also with entrepreneurship, basically there is no map. You just don't know what's going to happen. And imagine there is no map for for your own life. And you lose the trophies. So then you think, okay, this is going freaking nowhere. I don't even know where I am.

No. No. No.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, then you get lost.

Yes.

How Angela, how much how much did your your family sort of influence your mentality at this point? Like I would imagine with your you know, you're you're married you I don't know how many kids you've had at this point but like there's other people that are now within your immediate circle. Talk to me a little bit about now being a wife and a mother and then also embarking on this thing for yourself. Were there things that you were scared of? there things that maybe inspired you because you were now, you know, part of your core family? Like, what did that look like?

It feels very right. So the way I'm doing it now it feels right. It may change, but I'm I'm a I'm working from home, so I'm always here basically. I spend half of the week with my kids in the afternoon and the other half my husband. So we are splitting everything fifty-fifty. So him being so supporting supportive and us sharing the

Mm-hmm

Yeah.

Mm.

the workload so well, it's super helpful. I I don't have I no longer have this urge of telling everyone.

Yeah.

So I'm fine with just doing stuff for myself, which was not the case like ten years ago. I always wanted people to know. And this you know, this is f the phenomenon when you are only guided by other people's opinions and that's why you need to tell them. And then I realized what that's really bad because everybody tells me something different. So I'm just

I see.

Yeah.

Yeah, they have their own initiative, their own agenda with everything.

Yeah. Yeah, what you need to realize that. And then you say, okay, if nobody knows because they just tell you what they know, then why don't I just do whatever I want to do? And then I realized, and that was a huge very simple but huge realization, that nobody cares what I'm doing.

Yeah, and that's the thing that's the hardest to realize at the end of the day. There's no, like, nobody will remember what you did, your mistakes. Like, it's just on your head all the time. Yeah.

Wow, that's

Nothing. Yeah. So if nobody cares, then I don't need to spend time putting together a reasoning. Because you know, when we're kids and so we always have this inner chatter. if that guy comes or my parents say something, then I will explain like this and does. And if this guy is stays saying that, then I'm going to respond this and so. You know, all this chatter in your head just quiet down because.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

There is no need to put together any explanation for anyone other than myself.

Yep.

Yeah. How did you get to this point in your life, Angela? How did you get to reframing circumstance and opportunity and failure? Because when I hear people talk about things like this, and I still am going through a lot of it myself, there's certain events that act as a catalyst for helping you rethink about. rethink things, right? Rethink what's important to you. Rethink how you spend your time. Rethink where you put your energy and your love. And I know that age and wisdom is part of it, right? You just learn more as you get older. But what are some of the other things for you that has helped you gain this new perspective?

you know like for from from when I look back, I I could tell you, but when I was in the middle of it, I couldn't could not have t told you what it is. so you know, COVID, as I said, this this period of being at home and no longer needing to go to the office made

Yeah.

Yeah.

made me feel in my body a relief. Which was like, whoa, so this is kind of a sign, you know. I told this chatter is so loud until we I mean I'm now I'm fifty-four now. So at around f the year fifty, I this is when I started just, you know, letting go other people's opinion, just because it's it just it was so straining out, you know, it was just exhausting. then

and

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

people's opinion started to bore me, then then I was I'm I I'm a very curious person and I thrive on learning. So I started to do online courses in my free time basically in the evening. I did a nutrition coaching for one and a half years. I don't even tell people because if I start telling them what I did everything then they think I'm I'm crazy. But

Yeah Yeah.

I actually did it out of curiosity and I still have this thirst of knowledge which is almost in insaturable. I always come up, I could learn, you know, my whole life. and I started looking, you know, this online stuff came up, you know, I started gaining access to I always dreamt to do a master or something in Harvard or in Yale. And then it n I never get the chance. So then I just did

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

certifications and courses in Harvard and I was I was like how cool is that you know I started doing courses on Coursera just by fun you just for fun and then and then you know this what you are asking about this inner turn you know and that kept coming up so you know my biggest Mount Everest was was always my father so My father was my and about the same time when I was feeling that I don't feel well in the law firm, that was the time when I instinctively instinctively started confronting my father.

Yeah. Yeah.

and then you know I confronted him, then I got self-confidence. then I started thinking about, well, what's the problem in this law firm? I always thought it's me, but then I realized it's not me, it's the system. But it takes courage to say, my god, the entire system is flown, you know. It's I'm I mean, who am I to say that? But I just realized whatever I do here is wrong. Because people would never say it's good what I'm doing.

Right.

Right.

then I did this health and well-being pro program for the firm and for that I read a lot. I was listening to an enormous amount of podcasts and then I just kept going by you know going from problem to problem and then just you know listening to the next one. But I remember I remember I put together a list.

and

like an exosheet with these are my problems, you know? I was like, I think I have a lot a lot of problems, so let's put them on the list. It was a it was a long list. The list was so long, you know? And I was like, my gosh, what am I doing with this list? And then I said, okay, I need to go to therapy. I was already, but I need to go again to therapy because list is so huge. And I don't don't even understand. I just I can tell you what the problem is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I don't know where this problem comes from and what it represents because I started seeing that the problems I put I put on the paper when you type them down and write them down, then you think, Whoa, okay, but this is just a representation of something which I can't see now. And somebody needs to help me to see it what the real problem is, right? So I give you an example, right? One of the issues I had on my list was like I have the feeling

Mm-hmm.

Right. Right.

That whatever I do, I cannot go full in. Do you know what I mean? So it's like this, yes. So I always had the feeling I'm just half-hearted, you know. Actually I wanted, but something stopped me to go all in. So this was on my list. I was like, I have no clue what this is about. So I go to the therapist, I say, here's the list.

Like fully committed. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

I read you my problems, help me solve some of these problems. And some of it was practice. It was actually practice going back to the past and stuff like that. And I went a few months to this therapy and I realized he has no clue what I'm talking about. So I went out of therapy again because it was just draining my energy. But what I did, what was really interesting, is

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep.

quite in the midst of COVID, I decided for myself I need to go back to my hometown when I grew up, where I grew up. I need to go back there. And I went in COVID time. I just went on the plane. We had no vaccines at that time. I just booked a flight. Nobody asked me, you know. I just I said, okay, if they turn me back, I did I then I just come back.

Yeah.

.

Yeah.

And like, you know, like with the law firm, I got on that plane. I was in my hometown, nobody asked me anything. And I spent a whole weekend alone. And that was when I realized that the reason I went back, and I didn't know why, but the reason was I just wanted to go back to a point in time in my life.

Yeah.

Where I was really happy.

Right. Getting that feeling back and imagining that you're there. Yeah.

Yes. And I was like, kind of meet yourself again. And you know, that brought me to something but then I did a an incredible course, a postgraduation, post grad course in in California and the Veritis Institute, which is about ecological psychology. So, you know, how is the psyche of somebody related of how everything in nature works?

Mm-hmm.

And that catapulted me to another, you know, universe of understanding the secrets of my psyche. So I kept digging is the answer. I kept digging, and I had nobody to guide me. But one of the guidances, what I realized is there is my body, how my body reacts and

Right? Right.

Yeah.

Then that was the point in time when I went back to sports and I started training again.

Yeah. This is, did you start training again after you came back from your hometown? Is that when you started to pick that back up again?

Like when

I st I started no, it was before. So I started training after my second child was born. I gained like twenty kilos, which is about I think thirty five pounds or something, I don't know how many pounds. And I was feeling that I'm falling apart. And I realized that to pick myself up again, I just need to pick up my s my body. And I took on a personal trainer and then I started working out. And by training again, my mind kept, you know, bringing up stuff which I started digesting like step by step, bit by bit. And by training and gaining like I I was gaining like real power in my body. I was feeling fit again. And that power that

Yeah. Yeah. Probably the fittest you've been in 20 years, I would imagine, right? Like as you're, cause you've been working all these years.

I I'm so fit now. I'm fitter than I was when I was playing tennis, you know.

Yeah, me too. And I'm 46. I think this is the best shape I've been since was 15.

Fittest ever. Yeah. And I propose to myself that every year I'm going to get a little bit fitter. So my life is not going down, my life is going up. That's my mantra, so to say. Every year I need to be a little bit fitter. I need to lift a little bit more. I need to run a little bit further. And it it's working.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, you look fantastic. mean, I think there's something about this reinvigoration of yourself in your middle age that happens. But your story, I'm a person who likes to try to understand themes and stuff. And that's the thing I love most about this podcast is hearing people's stories and trying to understand the themes. for you, I think this this insane ability to always, regardless of the situation, have that ability to keep digging into things and to keep trying to learn things, even though you feel like you may not have hit it 100%, you're still going to keep going with it. And that might not be the same thing. You might be going and doing something different over and over again. And... Angel, this is my last question for you because we're sort of running close on time. But my last question for you is, you you've got your two kids and your kids see this interview 30 years from now. What would you say to them to help give them that same sense of digging, of inspiration for themselves to keep learning and bettering themselves, even if they haven't felt like they've mastered anything or done anything 100 % for 30 years, like what would be your piece of advice to them now?

that it's never too late to start all over. And I keep encouraging them from s from the age where they are now to always have their own compass in themselves. So I you know, I keep telling them I don't care about the grades, but are you satisfied with how you prepared? Is there anything we can do on preparation? I don't care really about the grades, but are you satisfied of getting a three like five times?

Right.

Mm, I love it.

Like, do you think that do you think that's good for your self-confidence? If it's good, I'm fine. But if it's not good, I want you to prepare better. And then just keep trying. And you missed one one exam, you missed one shot. Yeah, well, the next one is coming. Doesn't matter. and you just keep going. Always the next one is always coming. And every day is a new day. A new day to try, a new day to start. You know, it's like a reset every day.

Yeah, yeah. Keep grinding. I love that. Angela, I've loved your story, my friend, and I'm glad the universe brought us together in this weird way over the internet. And I appreciate you telling me the story, and I wish you the best.

Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you so much for you know bringing out the story because sometimes you need somebody to bring it to the surface. And it is my utmost pleasure to tell the story to somebody who is digging in such a beautiful way.

Thanks

I appreciate that. We will keep in touch, I'm sure. And you have a fabulous weekend, okay? All right, bye-bye.

Thank you. Thank you.