She Worked Two Jobs, Drove Everywhere, and Put Two Daughters Through Private School. Here's How.

As you were raising your daughters as a single mom, what were some of the things that you were worried about when they were growing up? And I would imagine this is probably, a couple decades ago, but like what were some of the things that worried you?

Well, just trying to pack in all the time that they required because I had them in a lot of activities. I did a lot of driving. And with both daughters being in private schools, I drove a lot because there was a bus for my oldest daughter, but there wasn't a bus for my second daughter and they're 10 years apart. And so to her school, to my second daughter's school,

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

there wasn't a bus, so I had to drive her every day. And I did that and worked too, and I don't know how I did that. And there was even a time that I worked two jobs and packed all that in. So it was definitely a miracle that it all worked, including the lessons and all of that.

Wow. Yeah. I went to a private school during high I went to two private schools.

But yeah, it would worth it.

in high school and you know looking back at it I actually am amazed by how my parents could pull that off because it was one so expensive but two there's a lot of ⁓ there's a lot of pressure for you to do well in a private school and because you're unlike public school you're investing in it in some ways ⁓ what what made that a priority for you for

Uh-huh. Yeah.

both your daughters, ⁓ especially since they're 10 years apart, right? Like you've had time to think about one went to private school, now there's 10 years, and now the other one's going to private school, and there's a lot of time to reflect on if that was worthwhile. Like what was that like for you, and why did you think that was an important thing?

Yes. Well, unlike it is today, I didn't set out for my children to be in private school. The private school came after my first daughter early on because she was gifted and talented. And we're talking before she even started school, she could read at a sixth grade level before she even started kindergarten. And so the teachers recognized that. And so that's how the private school started. They had me.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow.

come out and visit them and look them over and then scholarships were there for her to go. And so I took that on as, okay, this is definitely a gift and it's the place that she needed to be in. So that's how the private school started because I would have never picked that because all of the driving and it's not right around the corner because there's a school in every corner and that's very convenient. But the other way was more of a, you know, it was work.

Right.

but it was worth it.

Yeah.

guest is someone whose life has been shaped by responsibility, service, and an instinct to lift others at every stage of her journey. Pamela Davis raised two daughters on her own, guiding them through private school, supporting their creative talents, and creating opportunities that help shape their futures. At the same time, she worked long hours, sometimes two jobs, just to make sure they got what they needed. Later in life, she decided to pursue something for herself. Pamela went to college in her 50s, earning her degree in education. After graduating, she stepped into another demanding chapter of her life, caring for her mother through 10 years of dementia until she passed away. Those years required patience, commitment, and a strength of presence that few other people ever have to give at any level. Through all of this, Pamela carried her love for art, drawing, teaching, and expression. connected to joy and purpose, even while balancing the many responsibilities that have defined her life. In our conversation, we talk about what it's like raising two gifted daughters, how she navigated private school pressures on a single income, why she returned to school later in her life, and how caregiving shaped her perspective. We also talk about her next chapter, her pursuit of art, her desire to build community, and the urgency she now feels to invest time back into herself. Here's my conversation with Pamela Davis. Let's get it.

Welcome to Life Between Titles. I'm your host, Savan, and today I've got my friend Pamela on. Pamela, how are you?

I'm fine, thanks, how are you?

I'm doing well, you know, it's another rainy and gray day here in the Pacific Northwest and so ⁓ I can't complain. ⁓

Well, I'm sorry to hear about the rain. still have sunshine and we haven't had our first snow yet.

⁓ yeah, whereabouts are ya?

Not yet. I'm in Denver, Colorado.

okay, okay. Pamela, you had mentioned ⁓ in our call initially that you were born and raised there. What's that like for people that's never been to Denver?

Hmm. Well, the weather changes at the drop of a hat. It can be sunny and then it'll turn into something different. So they just say stay tuned because the weather changes. we have really we have a lot of sunny days. A lot of people think that it's because it snows here that it's not sunny and it's cold, but it's not. So it's a lot of sunny days, more sunny days, they said than Hawaii.

Yep. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Interesting. I didn't know that. I mean, you would expect something like in that area to be pretty gray, but I guess not, ⁓

Yeah. No, it's not gray, not at all. have blue skies, which is, I think that's what attracts a lot of people. Because it does make a difference. With the skies being blue.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you seen... Have you seen over the years more people moving to that area?

Yes, too many people. they legalized marijuana. That's when everybody, they opened up the floodgates and that changed everything.

wow. Okay. Yeah, we could definitely touch upon that. want to dive into sort of what it's been like for you to live in that part of the world. But before we get started, I want to kick off our conversation with a series of one word answers. Are you ready for this? All right. So.

Okay. Okay.

Over the past 90 days, what is one word that describes how you're feeling?

Disheveled.

Yeah, what why is that?

Because it's been a change in my schedule and a change in my life, just overall not working.

Yeah, yeah, I can only imagine how much that changes the rhythm of your life, especially when you're used to a cadence and a routine. Pamela, think back to your last job.

Root. Yes, routine.

What's one word that describes how you felt on the last day of your previous job?

disappointed.

Tell me a little bit more about that.

Well, because I was let go. And it was because of a mistake. And so that was very disappointing that they handled it that way. So that was the main reason why I'd say I was disappointed. And I worked with children and I loved working with the children, but I didn't like the climate of the environment for the staff. They just, it wasn't good.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we don't have to name names of the company you were at, like give me sort of a description of where you were working on that last job.

But of course. It was a preschool with children from babies from three weeks old to five year olds.

Okay, okay. And do you think that that was a place that was sort of your ideal workplace or if you had to put together the perfect place for Pam to work, would that be it?

No, that would not be it. ⁓ Because basically for that age, it's a good age and it's a very special time because they're learning and growing. But it's a lot of, for lack of a better word, babysitting. And I don't want to babysit. I want to teach. And I want the children to be a certain age where you're growing with them and that sort of thing, more than babysitting.

Yeah, totally understandable. ⁓ Pam, let's rewind a few years. Tell me about you growing up. Where were you born? ⁓ Where did you grow up? Where did you go to high school?

So I was born in Denver, Colorado, and I only lived one other place, which was Dallas, Texas. And we didn't really like it there, so we came back. I had a single mom. She raised five children, three girls, and twin boys.

Okay. Uh-huh. Wow. Wow.

And so growing up was nice. mean, it was a good, my mom, she worked, but she cooked for us and cleaned and taught us everything that we should have known as far as just basic things in life. It was a good life. We had fun. We had our, our own friends, although we were, there were five of us. We all had our own friends and we went out and do, do whatever we did every day with our friends, which was wonderful. And the neighborhood friends too. didn't have to go far.

Right. Right. Pam, my mom... I was raised by both my mom and dad but one of the things that was a constant was I would always have my friends come over and it finally got to a point where my mom pulled me aside she said hey like we've got to tone it back because I can't afford to feed five men or grown boys coming in all the time and it got really expensive what was that like for for your mom who's a single parent

Yeah. Yes.

having all these kids come.

Well... Well, I think it's hilarious that you would even say that because back then I remember I think my mom spent probably $59 or so on three bags of groceries. Now, and she would and she would cook the five meals, you know, in the week. And so she'd have certain things. She'd take it out for dinner, like, for instance, pork chops. And our school was just right around the corner. And I remember I came home. I don't know how I had time to do this, but I made

Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

pork chops in sixth grade for my friends on our little lunch hour. And I don't even think it was an hour, but I make pork chops. And my mom did not scold me when she got home from work, even though I used our dinner. So that's how cool she was on that kind of thing. She shared with the neighbors. We would take in kids when their parents were having a conflict or whatever, and they wanted to so-called run away from home. And so

Yeah. Wow. ⁓

They used to call her, her last name was Davis. They called her Mama Davis. And so it was a good environment.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Pam, what was it like with that many kids coming over as you were growing up? Was there ever a time where you felt like you were overwhelmed by the amount of people or were you more sort of energized by all these people and all your friends coming over?

Energized because back then of course there more curfews there was you know a certain amount of time and then everybody went back home They had chores or they had to get ready for school the next day So we packed it in after getting out of school We packed in the fun to play and to do everything, you know, we played outside so everything was more of an adventure and so I never felt like You know, there was too many kids ever no none of that

Right. Yep. Right. Right. Yeah. What was it like for your mom being a single parent with all these kids there? What would she like? Explain to me her personality.

Very social, very direct in how she raised us. It was clear what she wanted or didn't want, her way or the highway whenever she would get angry. And I call her the Leo the lion because she was that. But she was good, you know, she was fair and she would sit down and have meetings with us about things and we would decide if we were going to do certain things. And ⁓ she left my father after she had the fifth child.

Yep. Yep.

because every time she was going to leave, because he was a gambler, he played the horses and he moved to California because of the horses. And so, and he was a good man and we got to go visit him later in life. So it wasn't a terrible thing. And then he moved to Denver and that's where he passed away. We all took care of him later down the road. But ⁓ she would try to do the best she could and she was glad to do it. She loved being a mother. She loved cooking and she loved taking care of the house. She did yard work and planted flowers and all of that in addition to working. So it wasn't even like a chore. And she went to church and she was part of the church and she did a lot of things. She packed it all in. She played cards and had card parties with her friends at night. And we'd go to bed, she'd clean the house and we couldn't come out. You know, there was only one bathroom, but she was like, whatever you have to do, you're downstairs. You guys keep quiet while the parties are going on with the cards and she had the balance.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember as a kid my parents would have their friends over and I was the I was the type of kid that I always just wanted to be around the adults. I'm like, what are they doing? And you know, just try to try to tell jokes or whatever. What was that like for you when your mom had all these friends over? ⁓

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was really funny because through the years with all the card games and everything, they would smoke. Now, thank God I never smoked. But they would smoke and I would bring the ashtrays and empty the ashtrays. But I never played cards growing up. Like my sisters learned how to play. But I figured it out. The reason why I never played was because they would have arguments. And it looked a little violent to me because they'd slam a card down and say, why did you play that in?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Yep.

And so I know I'm a daydreamer, so I knew they would definitely be mad at me in a card game, because I could drift off and have the attention span of a gnat and I'm onto something else. So yeah, that's, that's the card games were fun for us to witness, but at the same time, you know, as it got later, it got a little wilder, you know? And so it was quite the arena, but nothing ever happened bad. So I can honestly say that was good, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Nobody ever got hurt, but...

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. ⁓ Your mom sounds like just an amazing woman with an endless amount of energy and charisma. What do you think you learned from her as a parent now? what were some of the invaluable experiences that she taught you?

Well, one thing that I can say for sure, she always said you have to take care of your children. You can't leave it to the man. She said, you take care of that child no matter what. And if ⁓ they're not doing that, then that's not the man for you. You put your children first because you're all they have. Even if you're married to the man or whatever the situation is.

Hmm. Right?

And she always said that, and it made so much sense because things change, but you still have to remember that your children are depending on you. And so I use that with my children, because I was a single mother of two daughters. I raised them and like I said, I did it by myself. I got child support, but I'm saying for the most part, I was the head of household and that sort of thing.

Right? Yeah. You know, there's something to be said about being able to chart a path for your children and doing it in a way where you think it's going to give them the best possible path to success. As you were raising your daughters as a single mom, what were some of the things that you were worried about when they were growing up? And I would imagine this is probably, a couple decades ago, but what were some of the things that worried you?

Well, just trying to pack in all the time that they required because I had them in a lot of activities. I did a lot of driving. And with both daughters being in private schools, I drove a lot because there was a bus for my oldest daughter, but there wasn't a bus for my second daughter and they're 10 years apart. And so to her school, to my second daughter's school,

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

there wasn't a bus, so I had to drive her every day. And I did that and worked too, and I don't know how I did that. And there was even a time that I worked two jobs and packed all that in. So it was definitely a miracle that it all worked, including the lessons and all of that.

Wow. Yeah. I went to a private school during high I went to two private schools.

But yeah, it would worth it.

in high school and you know looking back at it I actually am amazed by how my parents could pull that off because it was one so expensive but two there's a lot of ⁓ there's a lot of pressure for you to do well in a private school and because you're unlike public school you're investing in it in some ways ⁓ what what made that a priority for you for

Uh-huh. Yeah.

both your daughters, ⁓ especially since they're 10 years apart, right? Like you've had time to think about one went to private school, now there's 10 years, and now the other one's going to private school, and there's a lot of time to reflect on if that was worthwhile. Like what was that like for you, and why did you think that was an important thing?

Yes. Well, unlike it is today, I didn't set out for my children to be in private school. The private school came after my first daughter early on because she was gifted and talented. And we're talking before she even started school, she could read at a sixth grade level before she even started kindergarten. And so the teachers recognized that. And so that's how the private school started. They had me.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow.

come out and visit them and look them over and then scholarships were there for her to go. And so I took that on as, okay, this is definitely a gift and it's the place that she needed to be in. So that's how the private school started because I would have never picked that because all of the driving and it's not right around the corner because there's a school in every corner and that's very convenient. But the other way was more of a, you know, it was work.

Right.

but it was worth it.

Yeah. How did you, that's an amazing story. How did you raise your first daughter so that she could read at such an early age? Cause I would imagine that takes a lot of time and commitment.

So yeah. Well, actually, it was her. I I loved children just overall. I always loved children. And I like to take the time out and play with them and read to them and just do things like that. she, I'm talking age one. I mean, well, before she was even one in the crib, her bottle was across the room and she stood up in the crib and said bottle and it was across the room. stuff like that. And then I would give her books and she would say she could read.

Yeah.

And I was like, okay, sure, sure you can read. And she would just start reading. So it started like that. And then nobody believed it. You know, people brag on their children. And so when I had friends, I just said, I'll just, you know, I'll let you see firsthand. And sure enough, that's how it went. But it went from there. Just, just amazing. And it was quite the adventure because I love, I love learning. So that was perfect for me. That was right up my alley.

Mmm. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

And really what I find children to be is you can get all of your kid stuff out through your kids. So it's an adventure. So that's why it was never a job to me, you know, on that note. So it was just, it was fun. It was very much fun. And then one thing I learned along the way from being single, I didn't realize that my mom, with her being single, made me want to be single, even though I didn't plan that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm.

because you can make your own decisions and no one's telling you what to do. And so you're not asking for permission because you're the one in charge. I found out later in life that's what was going on with me. That's why it was really so great because I was in charge, for lack of a better word, you know? And it was my idea and the kids came along to do what we wanted to do. So yeah.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah, yeah, first- Yeah, I mean, I think there's a gift and a curse of having that much responsibility.

Yep.

for ⁓ your kids and ⁓ I think there's, I think there are a lot of times that even I second-guess some of the things that I'm investing with my own daughter. Like is this the right amount of things that she's doing, whether it's a sport or learning a new skill or whatever that may be. ⁓ Pam, I wanna rewind it back a little bit to how you got your daughter to this private school like how did they actually find her or did you like get in front of some committee and say hey my daughter is exceptionally smart like you should think about bringing her on

No, not at all. No, as I said, she could read in kindergarten. She just happened to have a male teacher, which was wonderful. He made teacher of the year that year in Colorado. And I remember his name was Russ. But anyway, ⁓ he knew how smart she was and gifted. And then second grade, I think it was the teacher gave me a list of names of these private schools.

Right. Mm-hmm. Yep.

for me to go and visit. And then when she was singing, she used to sing with the Colorado Children's Chorale, they invited me to the first private school to come out and I was very intimidated. But I did it. I made myself the first appointment. I didn't even go because I was so intimidated. then, because I didn't realize there were scholarships or whatever, I didn't know how I would pay for it. And there were the grounds and you came through the gate and all of that. But

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

As I said, that's how it started and then they told me about a scholarship, blah, blah, and then the rest is history. She started at sixth grade actually, so that was kind of late in the game. She started private school in sixth grade and then went from there, whereas my second daughter, she started private school in kindergarten. And when I worked at a grocery store, a woman came in talking to me about my second daughter.

Mm-hmm.

just asking me some questions because they were trying to recruit and they wanted to recruit minorities, number one. And she went in, she took the test and she was in. That was kindergarten. So it started early for the second daughter. She did kindergarten all the way through for private school.

Mm-hmm. Right. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's amazing to me.

But not, as I said, not the snobbish way that it is now or that it's the only and the best. Because I lived in Cherry Creek School District, which was known to be the best school district. So I wasn't going into the private sector for that reason of getting something better. I had good schools, you know. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Tell me a little bit about your life when you were raising your daughters. ⁓ both in private school, probably a ton of pressure to be able to sustain that lifestyle. I would imagine there's not just the school itself, but they've got hobbies and they've got activities and all these things and it's never cheap. All that stuff is never cheap. What was life like for you back then? How did you survive this period? Because I think about my parents and it was hard as hell for them.

No. you know Yes, yes. And let me tell you, there were times that it was rough. There was a time too that my oldest daughter, she got invited to go to Paris and I didn't know how I was going to do that. I think it was a thousand dollars back then, which is so cute now. And I didn't know how I was going to do it. But I at the time had a boyfriend that said, we're all in the car together. And then I told her, don't know if you can go. And then he told me, yeah, she can go.

Okay. Wow.

So he paid for it. So she got to go to Paris and she was fluent in French and great in foreign languages. She took Spanish first when she was, before she even, I want to say second grade. She would go early in the morning for the Spanish class before school started. So anyway, she got to go to Paris. Through the course of all the events, ⁓ I say God made a way because I definitely didn't have the money for all the things that she got to do, both of them. I mean, I don't even know how we did it. It was just a miracle in itself. The money came. Yeah.

There's a certain amount of perseverance but also just faith in... ⁓ making sure you're putting yourself in the right places to get some of these things done. Like I think about how I've gotten to some of the places I've gotten to and it just blows my mind that I was able to do those things. stuff just falls into place sometimes and you go back and you reflect on how you made those things happen. ⁓ What was your community like to help you during this time? Did you have a series of friends or family, like church? What was your community while you raising the daughters?

Well, what's funny is my siblings weren't very supportive. My sisters were very, I mean, I think it's funny too because I didn't listen to the so-called hater aid of your children are in private school. Like I'm a snob, which I was not a snob and they weren't either. And it was none of that. And then,

wow. Right? Right?

different little comments that were made. But as I said, I ignored it because I knew it wasn't true.

Yep. Yep.

But it allowed many things, like for my first daughter, when she was a senior in high school, she got over 13 letters from colleges that flew her out to look them over, to look them over. And she would be a little nervous and I said, no, you don't have anything to worry about. They're having you look them over. They're not looking you over. They know what you can do. And so that was really a beautiful thing and a gift.

Wow. Wow. ⁓ Mm-hmm.

for her to be able to choose like that and get a full scholarship.

Yeah.

So yeah.

Yeah, as a parent, I'm sure you were excited, but also just thinking, boy, like I did a lot of things right to get my daughter to this place, and I'm sure that was a great period of time for you. What do you think are some of the things that you did to make sure she was successful to get those scholarships?

Yes. Well, think number one, she already had the academic ability. That was just born. She was born with that. But I took out the time. I took out time with her. And different times, if I tried to help her with homework, I'm talking all the way from kindergarten, she knew how to do it. And she would tell me I know how to do it. I said, well, I guess I can go to my room or go somewhere else. No, mom, no. I want you to sit with me. Because.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

In other words, we can't go have fun while they're doing homework. But so it wasn't because she didn't know how to do it. It was just that she wanted the support. So I found that out early on too. along the way, it's really been good because when I decided to go and get my degree at age 52, and I started in 2006, I graduated and I got my degree, my bachelor's degree in 2010, and my oldest daughter,

Yep. Mm-hmm.

She helped me. She edited my papers and my essays. We spent many nights. I would take her back to her apartment at two o'clock in the morning because we're doing a paper or whatever we're doing. She helped me later down the road. And it's amazing that I can't even believe what we did back then, the hours we spent with the papers and all of that. And so when I graduated in 2010,

Right.

A lot of it was because of her. yeah. So it went full circle with both daughters, you know?

It's It's, it's, it's... Yeah, yeah. Tell me a little bit about why you decided to go back and get your degree. Like what was the impetus for that?

Well, I always loved school. Well, I always loved school. When I got out of high school, I went to art school. And so that's what I did because I wanted to draw and paint. And I did that for a while and worked. was still working because I started working at an early age at a grocery store. And I worked there from 16 to, I think, 45. So I had 28 years. I had 28 years with the grocery store.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. wow. Yeah.

And ⁓ that's how I supported my children and how. I was able to do some things. mean, the hours were crazy. I could do part-time, full-time, you know, I did that through all the years. But yeah, so I always loved school. I just didn't go to college right out of high school because I wanted to go to art school. And then it went from there and I was always working, you know. So yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Was there like a moment where you decided just to commit to going back to school?

definitely. When I found out with the second daughter, when I would go to the different field trips and things, and then the time came, I think she might've been eight, where she kinda, was like she didn't need me anymore. So then I said, okay, this is my time to go back and get my degree. And then I went to, ⁓ my oldest daughter, she told me about a program, it was Emily Griffith Opportunity School. And so I did that for early child education.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

be a director. So I went to that program and then that teacher, the main teacher over that program, she started late like at 50 doing that program and so she said, why don't you go get your degree and she told me about the University of Northern Colorado and then that's what started that. And so I went and I got my degree and she was around to see me graduate and I was friends with her and her husband for many years. ⁓ and they lived to be like 90 something. So it was really cute. Yeah. The husband died first. The husband died at like 90 or so. And then six months later she passed away because they had been together for over 65 years. But yeah, it was a good story. We were friends and they were friends with my mom and we'd go to breakfast. But that's how I got my degree. She told me about that. And my oldest daughter told me about.

Wow. Wow. That's a long time.

her program at Emily Griffith. But I always had the interest for school.

Yeah. What was your degree in?

It was called interdisciplinary studies, but it's for education to become a teacher.

Okay. Okay. ⁓ You know, I started college. ⁓ right after high school. And that's actually where I connected with your daughter. ⁓ We went to the same college for a hot second, but I ended up dropping out and then going back ⁓ as I was a little bit older. And it felt different than the first time I went. For you, Pam, going to college a little bit older in your life, what was that like? Did you have any pressures or did your mindset change of what you expected out of college?

No, well this particular program was called Urban Education and it was not at Greeley, the campus, the main college, University of Northern Colorado is in Greeley, but this was on the Lowry campus and there was there were students of various ages but it wasn't for teenagers because I visited a college where there were a lot of 20 year olds and 18 year olds and I thought that wasn't going to work. That was very no and so but this particular program even though a lot of the students were young but there were

Okay.

older students too. I still think I was one of, I was probably, like I said, I think I was 52 or 50 when I started the program. And there might've been 10 people my age. So that was pretty good. Yeah. So that was kind of cool. Cause you had a variety of ages, but, it was convenient cause we were in the classroom in the morning from like eight to 12, you picked a school and that was your internship.

Yeah.

And then you went to the college campus for the rest of the day from like one to five, Monday through Friday. So yeah, it was a good setup. And for four years, made good friends. one of the friends, couple of the friends I'm still friends with now, and I graduated in 2010. So it's been 15 years ago, but we were together and you make friends that you never, you know, you never leave those friends.

Yeah Yeah, no, absolutely. ⁓ What was it like for you studying for exams and stuff like that? ⁓ Were you ⁓ excited about it? Did you feel pressure? What was that like for you? Okay.

I'm not a test taker because I overthink it and then self-sabotage. So ⁓ that wasn't the greatest. I did fine, but I'm not a test taker. I don't really prefer test taking. I'm more intimidated by it. Now, my first daughter was like that, and then my second daughter, totally not. She'd go in and she'd ace a test and she didn't even study for it.

Okay. Mm-hmm.

because she knew the strategy on looking at what was on the test, the multiple choice or whatever. And the teachers hated her for that, the second daughter, because they said, you know, they knew when she didn't know the material, but she could go and do that. So that was, had her own little talent with that, which I still admire. It's amazing. So, but I survived.

Yeah. Yep. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a horrible test taker too. I think like I could study 10 hours or one hour and I'd probably get the same grade. I was never good at approaching those things. And partly it's just because I didn't know the technique. ⁓ And I still have nightmares of going to class and not studying for something and then taking it and just failing the test. Like that's still a nightmare for me.

Well, I had that same reoccurring dream in a different way. I went to George Washington High School in Denver and I would be in the classroom in this dream, but I didn't know my combination to my locker. I knew I would sit in the back of the classroom and I was listening to the teacher telling the assignment, but I knew I didn't have to do it because I wasn't in school. I dreamt that for, I know, over 10 years. And I didn't know my locker combination when I go to the locker.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

It's a crazy thing. I don't know what that was about, but.

Yeah, I don't know what that means either. I think it's partly anxiety of some sort of stress and partly just being at a place that you're comfortable with. Like don't even remember the schools that were in my dream. I just know that I was in a random classroom and all of a sudden I'm stressed out and then I wake up. I'm like, thank God I'm not in school anymore. ⁓

Yes. Yes, yes, I love that dream.

Pam, tell me a little bit about art in your life and creativity in your life. You'd mentioned that you wanted to go to art school, but you ended up getting a degree to be a teacher. What was art to you growing up?

Well, I love to draw, so I would see things that I wanted to draw. So I would just sit at the dining room table drawing something. And I know you're too young to know, but they used to have in a magazine, there was this little thing. If you can draw this, you can go to this art school. It might've been a little dog or something. I don't know. It was like a little square. I can see it now. And if you draw that and you fill out this little form and send it in some art institute, and that's where it started.

Okay? Yeah. Yeah.

And so I would draw. then, as I said, when I got in high school, I had a really neat teacher that I became friends with, ⁓ Mrs. Hashman at George Washington High School. So I was in the fashion class, fashion drawing, and I was in regular art. then we had another guy, Mr. Marichek. He would do our report cards in the calligraphy. He took out the time and had the little ink bottle and

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Holy smokes.

I know, yeah. Anyway, two great art teachers for the three years, you know? And I just like to draw and paint. So then I went to Rocky Mountain School of Art when I got out. One of the students that was in school with me in my classes, I'm still friends with him, he went to Rocky Mountain School of Art, so he told me about it. And so we went there together and he's a professional artist to this day.

Yeah. Yep. Wow.

We would meet on Wednesdays ⁓ when my second daughter went to college. I was in the library and I ran into him and I hadn't seen this guy in 10 years or whatever. So then he told me about this art group that meets on Wednesdays. So then I'd start going to the art group on Wednesdays. And as I said, all the people that I'm telling you about were professional artists. There was only a couple of people like myself and one of my other good friends that weren't professional artists. But

Mm-hmm.

That was quite the experience and I'm still friends with them. But when COVID happened, we kind of dropped off. I didn't go to the Wednesday nights anymore. ⁓ Not to mention my mom, I would be with my mom a lot and she didn't want to be by herself at night. And so she, if I went to work, cause I stayed with her, we merged after my second daughter graduated from college. And I was at my mom's all the time. she said, well, why don't we merge? You move into my house. And so I did. And then as time went on, my mom got dementia. So I was with her for 10 years. Five of the years were really good. And then that last five years, because she just passed away in February, she had dementia. So I got to see her go downhill, the memory, just different things. And so that's been a big part of my life, too. But that dropped off. my art a little bit because I was concentrating on her and then I worked too, you know, in between them. But that's been a lot. And I'm actually going through that because I'm still mourning. It's been nine months. But we were close and the connection. So that was a job in itself, but it was a job as a rewarding job, but it was a job, you know. So I'm away from that job as well. you know, in my transition now into what I'm going to do next. But I want to do something that has to do with art that's joyful because I know I don't have any time to waste. You know, the clock's ticking and if I don't do it now, what am I going to do it? So right now I set up sip and paint classes in the building that I live in. I've got one scheduled for December 4th.

Yeah.

and they give donations. I don't get paid for it, but I do this so that I can get myself, make myself do my art. Put your art first, you know, and keep doing art. So that's where I'm at with that part, if that makes sense.

Right? Right? Yeah, it seems like, Pamela, you've got this amazing story where you're this... caregiver and this rock for your family both for Your daughters and their well-being and making sure they're successful but then on the tail end of that you've got your mom who you've taken care of for so many years and you're sort of like at least it seems to me the the glue that's holding a lot of the stuff together and art is an outlet for you of joy and creativity

Yes. Yes.

How are you, how do you handle sort of like all those pressures of all these things and still at the same time try to commit that time back to yourself, right? Because you've gotta take in energy, you've gotta take in all these things to keep you still going. Like what are some of the things you do to make sure your wellbeing is taken care of as well?

Well, I love being outside. So like Sunday, for an example, I got up, got out fresh air because that brings me back to life. And recently I just got an e-bike. So that's kind of fun too. But that thing is very dangerous because it's so heavy. It's like a motorcycle. You have to hold it up. And so that's quite the challenge. And there's no room for error because if something shoots in front of you, you can't necessarily

Okay? Right? Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

hold onto it the way you could with a little lightweight, you know, mountain bike. So I keep myself busy. We have a gym in the building. I've slacked off in the last two weeks. I've had some other things going on, so I haven't been able to go, but I love working out. Once I'm there, I'm happy as a clam and I could stay there for hours. Just going from machine to machine. But anyway, so I try to stay active. I love to walk around City Park. They have a lake.

Right. Mm-hmm. Right? That's great. Right.

I walk around that lake and that rejuvenates me. All the trees are naked now. I take photos because I love taking pictures. I took pictures of all the autumn trees and the beautiful colors. Just gorgeous. So all that makes me happy and brings me joy because it's own art, you know, it's art. So that's my art too. And I used to take my mom for years, even when she was ill with the wheelchair, she could walk, but she couldn't walk around the lake. So I would have her in the wheelchair. and I'd go to her house and get her and then take her to the park. So I did that for a long time. Sometimes I'd go by myself. Most of the time I made sure I took her outside, but she was really fussy and she barked about things. And I said, now who's fussing when it's so beautiful like this and someone's pushing you? Come on. So, but that was quite the challenge. And then after she passed, it was like, it was kind of a void.

Yeah.

Okay, so that job is done and I don't have to take care of her, but I got to take care of me. So I'd make myself go because with the job that I had before the preschool, I worked for AARP and I was an employment specialist. So in that job, I was taking care of people too because people over 55 getting them jobs. So that was my job to get them a job. And that was on my way home. The park was on the way and I would stop and decompress from my day with that and walk around the lake. So now that I'm a little further north from the park, I make myself go. It's not far still. It's only 30 minutes away, but it's not in the direction. It's out of ⁓ the direction of where I'd go every day. So I make myself go, but I love it. And I said, no, get back into it again. You know, I've I've been going to the park since my little nieces and nephews that are like, they were fifth, they're 50s now, right? I took them to the park before I ever had children. I took them to activities and baseball games and stuff that I wanted, you know, them to experience that maybe their parents didn't take them to. So I've been doing this, it's just natural. You know, the outdoor thing, yes. And so, yeah, so I've done it. I did it before I had children and then I don't have any grandchildren.

Mm-hmm. Mmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's part of you. Yeah.

So it's just me now. And now what I'm trying to do is get back into me. It's not selfish for me to take care of me and to be glad that all I have is I can just take care of me now. So it's kind of like, hurry, do what you can do, you know, before something, I'm kind of paranoid, like, well, something before something happens, you know, that's going to change it. So, so that's.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the things outside of, getting exercise, which I think is super important that you're doing to take care of yourself, Pam? Are there ways you're trying to invest back into your well-being outside of the exercise?

Well, as I said, I'm definitely the social butterfly, right? In my building, it's a community. We do things. We have different activities that we do. Some things I go to, and I don't try to go to everything, but I go to things in my building. We have happy hour on Tuesdays, which is wonderful. Because you can just get on the elevator and go right down to the community room and there's happy hour. Sometimes it's music on the television. Sometimes it's somebody's nice music coming out of speakers.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Not a lot of people will get up and dance, but I will. I'll dance because I love dancing. I went dancing. I got invited to go out to a party last Saturday and I got to get up and dance. I can still, thank God, knock on wood, I can still wear heels, which a lot of people can't. ⁓ So that's kind of nice. I get to wear shoes. My mom was notorious with the shoes. She gave me so many beautiful boots and shoes when she couldn't wear them.

Yeah. ⁓ that's amazing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

And so that's another thing. That's another project that I want to do. I want to photograph the shoes and then put them in like a calendar. And there's only a month left in the year, practically a month and a few days. But I would love to have a 2026 calendar of shoes because the shoes are just beautiful. We're talking all kinds of styles, you know. But yeah, so.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What do you think the shoes represent for you?

Well, ⁓ it's style. My mom was very fashionable. And that's one thing. You dress a certain way, you feel a certain way. And the shoes are the icing on the cake to me.

Uh-huh. Yeah.

I love boots, love shoes, and I do like, I like going barefoot and being flip-flops on, so it's not just one or the other, you know. I love sneakers too. Good tennis shoes.

Great, great. Oh, I do too, I do too. I'm a shoe fanatic as well. Almost to a detriment.

Yes, I understand that more than you know, because with where I live now, it's only a one bedroom and there's no storage. So I've got shoes on those door things, you know, and then the columns in my closet. So, yeah, that's one thing I'm working on. I'm trying to totally be organized with what I have and then take away what I really don't need. You don't need 72 pairs of

Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Mm-hmm. Right. Great.

shoes or 20 black skirts. So that's what I'm working on now.

Right, right. ⁓ Pam, tell me about the last couple places you've worked. I know we touched upon that real briefly in the beginning of our call, but what were the last couple places that you've worked?

Well, the first one was the preschool. I worked there for one year. Before that, took my job ended. worked for AARP as an employment specialist for five years, but that was a stipend and it was a grant program. You can only do it for so many years and then your time is up. That's why that job ended. It ended in 2023. So between that time, I was unemployed for 14 months.

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

but by choice, excuse me, by choice because I needed time to be with my mom and I knew I wanted to be with her, do stuff with her and be patient and not worn out because you're working and then still trying to do whatever. So for those 14 months, I got to spend with her and do many things and be present. So I'm really glad about that. However,

wow. Right. Right.

I have to laugh because I racked up credit card debt in those 14 months. Because sure, I could pay my bills with my other money, my pensions, social security, blah, blah, but the extra stuff. So now I have to clean that mess up. So that's where I'm at. But I don't regret it because it was time that I needed to spend with my mother and quality time. And I wanted time.

⁓ yeah.

time out, you know, from, cause I've worked all my life since I was 14.

Yeah. What was that time like for you, ⁓ especially considering you've been working for so long and now you've got this extended 14 month period where you're invested in your relationship with your mom and making sure she's okay. What was it like for you? Mm-hmm.

season. It was a lot, because my mother was very demanding, okay? And ⁓ she was demanding when she wasn't ill, but in a good way. We were good friends, we did a lot together, you know? But as I said, it had its ups and downs, but overall I loved it, because I like freedom. I like the false freedom. Just like now, this is false freedom. ⁓ My two months away from my job.

Right. Right. Yeah. Yep.

I know I need a job, but I don't really want a so-called job. And I'm kind of gun shy. I don't want to go back into something just to earn money, you know? But I know I have to earn money for those extra expenses that I created. I didn't plan well for retirement. Let me say that.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yep. I mean, you've had so many things that are pulling at you and your resources over the years, right? Like it's, there's a lot of stress and pressure from your girls going to college and your mom and, you know, all these things. ⁓ How do you think that has affected where you are now? Like with, you know, trying to find that next opportunity.

Hmm, I think I've put myself kind of on the back burner in certain ways and I let certain fears stop me from doing some things that I could have done because I was focusing on other people. But I don't regret it, but I know that's part of it. But it was a good excuse. You know, you can hide behind your children, you can hide behind your parents or whatever you're doing or whoever you're caring for. You still do you, but you

Right. Right?

don't do it to the fullest because you've got this. But I've learned that there's always going to be this. Because even in my building that I'm in now, I ⁓ had a neighbor call me yesterday to help him with a project. But that's not, I needed, I had my own project in my apartment that I needed to be doing. But this guy helps me when I need help. So I said, go help him. I did. It was rewarding. And I don't know if you can see this ring.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

There were beautiful rings. He had a bunch of rings that he wants to sell and take the proceeds towards cancer because one of his daughters has cancer that keeps coming back. And so he's got about probably 500 rings. And I helped him size, them in the, you know, get them on the sizer and put them in their columns and their little case. And he wants me to help with the sales of these rings. So there's another project.

Uh-huh. Wow.

There's always someone recruiting me for something, you know? So I have to kind of be careful with that though and not get too deep into that and get sidetracked and derailed from my own focus of what I'm trying to accomplish.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I mean, one of the most challenging things for me during this period is, if you don't carve out that time for yourself to do these things, something will carve that time out for you, whether it's your, your family or your friends or obligations. And, you know, it's, you think you have a ton of time, but at the end of the day, you look back, you're like, what did I just do today? Like, I have no clue what happened. Yeah. Yep.

yeah. Well, the weeks just go by. It's crazy. They say when you get older, time moves faster. I just think we have more on our plate, though, too. We have a lot of distractions from media to... There's so many things to derail us in the blink of an eye. You can be in the middle. If I didn't use this phone or put it on Do Not Disturb,

Yep. Yep.

You've got your solicitor's calling, you've got somebody's calling all the time and there's something, somebody's texting you and you've got all these messages that derail us. Cause I told you I have the tins and span of a nap. And so one minute, I mean, you like I said, I'm looking at this and then I look at something else and then I'm somewhere else and then you've got, it's just all around us like, okay. So yeah. So sometimes I just.

Yep. Hahahaha! Yep.

When I walk in the park, I don't even listen to music anymore. I used to do that. I said, no, just be present. And just because I love music, but I said, no, listen to music in the car in the park, just walk around the lake with the silence. So you just have to force yourself to stay in the lane.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and really experience being outside. I love that idea. I used to ⁓ do a lot of running and there's a period where if I didn't have my headphones or they would die or my phone would die, I'd just be like, I'm not gonna go for a run. But I got over that because I was just like, I just need to go and do it without any of stuff, because you depend on it. Pam, I want to pivot a little bit and talk about your future and some of the things that you're.

Yes.

that you're looking out for and that you're excited about. How are you sort of navigating these last 30 days? What does that look like for you?

Hmm. Well, I'll tell you, I've got a big project in my apartment that I'm working on. I had the things that I couldn't keep when I moved here with the one bedroom and coming from a house that I've given away a bunch of stuff, but I had a bunch of things in storage and I don't mean furniture. I have my children's books that I can't part with.

Okay. Yep.

some dolls, ⁓ papers. Why did I save it? I don't know. But instead of going through it at the storage, I brought it to my apartment two weeks ago. And I said, you're going to take each day while you're off and go through these paper and throw them out. Now I've done something, but I'm not done. This is quite the job. you can I'm going through each bin and looking through the papers and putting them in a big

Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

pile of trash but it's a lot and that's what I've taken on now and I've got a deadline because I've got a class that I'm teaching on the fourth and then I'm actually inviting some friends over I'm hosting a party that we normally just the ladies horse hosted at their houses or whatever but now it's my turn so everything has to be cleared out and my clock is ticking so I that's what I'm doing now yeah

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like the pressure of a party to get your button gear.

Right, well, I don't know if your parents did it, but I remember back in the good old days, my mom cleaned the house anyway, but she really cleaned the scrub when someone was coming. So I said, hey, that's the best way to get your house clean when someone's coming over, right? Because I'm my only person, you know?

Right. yeah. yeah. Yeah, would clean the house just to get it dirty again for the party, then clean it all over again when it's all done. ⁓

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's my own little challenge. you know, what's today, the 18th? The clock is ticking and Thanksgiving's coming up. And then I'm going to my second daughter's. She sent me a ticket for Christmas to come to Long Beach. So that's going to be nice. Yeah.

Yep. Yep. Ah, yeah, that'd be super fun. love, I love going to Long Beach.

But to be honest now, well to be honest, I told you I want a job but I don't want a job because of what it is. I need the money. I need something to focus on that end. But I've got enough to do without a job. Let me say that. That's what I feel right now.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah life life fills you with an endless amount of things to take up your time

Yeah, there was a time I thought I would be bored not working, but not now. Uh-uh. No, that is not. No, I've got projects that I won't stay in my lane and finish it, you know? So yeah. Hopefully that answered part of that question.

Right. Right, ⁓ No, that was fantastic. Pam, ⁓ a few last questions here before we wrap up, but as you're thinking about your next role or whatever it is that you're taking on, what would be the perfect job for you if you had a magic wand and you could just make up something? What would that look like?

It would definitely have to do with art. I'd love to have a place, I even came up with an idea. ⁓ It's called Swag, Seniors with a Goal. But it's a building, I'd have a rented space where people could come and once again I'd be helping the community. But at the same time, there would be spots in this building where you could do art.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

You could do flower arranging, because beautiful fresh flowers, I love that too. I'm not a florist though, let me just say that. And I don't have a green thumb. I've got some plants, but no. But I love fresh flowers. So I'd have a spot for that. I'd have a spot for photography, because there's so much you can do with that. Like I told you, the photo shoot of the shoes and just different subjects. And I'd love to do stuff like that. But still be giving back to the community and having other people that need to

Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

be able to express themselves because you know life's not over just because you're over 65 or whatever you know. So I'd love to be able to do something like that. That would be the perfect spot for me to have a place where I could be and do the art, have the classes and just all of it. If that makes any sense.

Right, right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that sounds like the perfect combination of all the things that you've done in your life. The community and the art and the teaching and all those things.

Yes. So that'd be my perfect job.

Amazing amazing ⁓ Pam last last question for us today but if Your your friends or your daughter? Watched this podcast 10 years from now 15 years from now. What do you hope they take away from our conversation?

Well, love yourself, be yourself, and do what you care about. Because the clock ticks really fast.

Mm-hmm. It does. It does, it does.

I try to say it to them now, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I mean your days go so quickly.

Because one minute you're 40, then you're 60. And you're like, oh, now you're not old, but then it changes. And they keep telling you that you're old. so yeah, so it goes into that thing. So yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. All right, my friend. I appreciate you coming on, Pam. I know, you know, we're all super busy, but taking the time out to have this conversation with me, I really appreciate it.

Well, I appreciate you and I watched your podcast. I love that because I watch it periodically to remind myself to rejuvenate in that way, you know. Your title doesn't define you. You can. There's some things that are left for me to do, which I do know that, but I know it now more than I ever did. Yeah. So thank you. And it's been nice talking to you, too.

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, no that... That's absolutely true my friend. That's absolutely true. It's been nice talking to you. Have a great Thanksgiving and I wish you well. All right. See ya.

Okay, you too. Okay, thank you. Take care. Bye.